# Flawed PSAT grammar question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 15, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540 "2003-05-15T21:22:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/1 "2003-05-15T21:22:10Z")
According to [this story on CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/05/15/psat.question.ap/index.html), there is a flaw in the sentence \* “Toni Morrison’s genius enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured.”\* The error is that . . . \*the pronoun in the sentence – “her” – was used improperly. Keegan said the pronoun refers to an adjective instead of a noun, as it should. \* I am getting completely whooshed on this one. It looks correct to me. Are they saying that “Toni Morrison” is acting as an adjective, so the pronoun is inappropriate? Or is there some other problem I’m not seeing? What would be a good, grammatically-correct restatement of the sentence? 😕 RR ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/2 "2003-05-15T22:14:45Z")
“Toni Morrison’s” is the adjective phrase “genius” is technically the antecedent to “her” I think it’s generally understandable, though. Perhaps a “correct” rephrase would be: Her genius enables Toni Morrison to … ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/3 "2003-05-15T22:18:22Z")
I’ll say, it’s generally understandable \* to a native speaker of English \*. A speaker of a language where nouns have gender and the equivilent of “her” can refer to a noun such as “genius” could concievably have difficulty with this sentence. \ ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/4 "2003-05-15T22:26:03Z")
IANAGrammar Maven, but… Yes, the possessive is acting as an adjective in that sentence. The sentence could be rephrased as “The genius of Toni Morrison enables her to create…” or “Toni Morrison applies her genius to create…” without causing this problem, I think. It’s a silly, nitpicky thing that seldom has any impact on actual communication, but it’s part of The Rules. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/5 "2003-05-15T22:57:39Z")
NO NO NO NO! Goddamnit, I can’t believe a mistake like that appears on a fucking PSAT. The possessive (genitive) CASE of a noun is still a NOUN. It’s not an adjective, damn it! The sentence is grammatically correct as written. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/6 "2003-05-15T23:11:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nametag \* > \*\*NO NO NO NO! . . . . > > The possessive (genitive) CASE of a noun is still a NOUN. It’s not an adjective, damn it! > > The sentence is grammatically correct as written. \*\* Amen, **Nametag**. ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/7 "2003-05-15T23:43:12Z")
No native speaker of English would ever interpret “her” as referring to the genius. Ever. The sentence is perfectly grammatical in the linguistic sense, and in all but the most pissant literary senses (the kind where the rules are all arbitrarily based on Latin, and even then genitive nouns are still freakin’ nouns). The PSAT is a pile of crap anyways. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/8 "2003-05-15T23:57:28Z")
According to the College Board’s explanation [here](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/psat/about/rescore_1002.html), they had to remove it because “some usage manuals” consider it incorrect. What I want to know is, what usage manuals are these? Can I publish the collected works of the Paignton Zoo Monkey House as a “usage manual” and nullify all the questions on the PSAT? When, if ever, was this not normal usage (or at what point did someone declare it not to be)? I think that as long as English has been around, “Claire’s mother told her to eat brains,” would never have been incorrect. At least their [math mistake](http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/psat/about/question_1002.html) was unambiguously incorrect. (Although I can’t knock the PSAT on the whole; I got a lot of money from my scholarship). ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/9 "2003-05-16T00:12:51Z")
\“Claire’s mother told her to eat brains”\ Or, more akin to the original example: “Fred’s unusually long tongue enabled him to lick his elbow”. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/10 "2003-05-16T00:14:12Z")
This topic is also being discussed in IMHO. I’m too lazy to link the the thread. I have nothing to contribute here except a high five to **Nametag**. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/11 "2003-05-16T01:03:37Z")
_At least their math mistake was unambiguously incorrect._ Sidetrack: I suppose so… To me, mathematical convention for variable names strongly implies “j” and “k” are integers, but I guess the question had to be rigorous. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/12 "2003-05-16T03:31:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragonblink \* > The PSAT is a pile of crap anyways. Amen. As I said, it’s a silly, nitpicky thing that has no basis in common usage. Yes, the possessive acts as an adjective; that doesn’t automatically make the pronoun referent unclear. The original wording is perfectly acceptable to anyone who doesn’t have too much time on his hands (or more likely, who has a pet student who missed out by one point). Eventually, the manuals that pick this particular nit will go away, despite any effort by pedantic twits to keep them alive. Clarity should come first, elegance second, and arbitrary rules a poor third (if they’re even in the race). ---
**Author:** ![StephenG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@StephenG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephenG)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/13 "2003-05-16T04:15:18Z")
Okay, I just don’t understand the “mistake”. Not to brag credentials, but … well, I’m going to. I’ve taken courses in Syntax and in Semantics, I nearly have a B.A. in Linguistics … the sentence seems fine to me. > [@](#): > > Toni Morrison’s genius enables her… Okay, the verb is “enables”, the subject is “Toni Morrison’s genius”, and the direct object is “her”. This makes sense to me. “Her” is a pronoun, and _should_ refer to something already mentioned in the sentence. [It doesn’t have to, though – “I killed her” is certainly grammatical.] This still makes sense to me. “Toni Morrison’s” is acting as the adjective phrase, according to **aktep** , the second poster in this thread. This makes sense to me. _But within that adjective phrase is a noun phrase – “Toni Morrison”._\* Right? Why can’t “her” refer to “Toni Morrison”? Why does it have to refer to “Toni Morrison’s”? This is the part that doesn’t make sense to me. Can someone explain this to me? And to everyone else? Thanks. 🙂 [sub]\*I can draw the sentence tree for this, as I see it, if anybody wants. In I` format and everything. Really.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Tamex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Tamex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamex)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/14 "2003-05-16T05:00:16Z")
They had the PSAT guy on Talk of the Nation last week (or maybe the week before) to talk about this incident. He said that the PSAT people had thought that the sentence was correct–the original answer was “no errors”. A teacher complained and said that it was grammatically incorrect for “her” to refer to “Toni Morrison”. Apparently, some older grammar textbooks did call this sort of construction incorrect, and, in this day of school budget crunches, some students may have been taught out of those old textbooks, so they decided to throw the question out. Apparently, when they reviewed the answers students gave on the question, a higher number of students than average left the question blank (there is more penalty for guessing wrong on the PSAT than for skipping the question all together) indicating that many were confused by the question. So, it wasn’t a matter of the teacher catching the PSAT people in a blatant mistake the way the CNN article makes it sound. Instead, the answer was rather ambiguous–some grammarians thought that the sentence was correct, and some did not . Because some students may have been taught this outdated rule, they decided to throw the question out. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/15 "2003-05-16T05:39:25Z")
So let me get this straight. From the point of view of those protesting the question, the sentence would be more properly written thus: “Toni Morrison’s genius enables it to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured.” Is that what they’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/16 "2003-05-16T10:12:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by StephenG \* > \*\*Okay, I just don’t understand the “mistake”. Not to brag credentials, but … well, I’m going to. I’ve taken courses in Syntax and in Semantics, I nearly have a B.A. in Linguistics … the sentence seems fine to me. > > . . . . > > “Toni Morrison’s” is acting as the adjective phrase, according to **aktep** , the second poster in this thread. This makes sense to me. _But within that adjective phrase is a noun phrase – “Toni Morrison”._\* Right? Why can’t “her” refer to “Toni Morrison”? Why does it have to refer to “Toni Morrison’s”? This is the part that doesn’t make sense to me.\*\* **Nametag** is correct. **aktep** is mistaken. _Toni Morrison’s_ is not an “adjective phrase.” (_Of Toni Morrison_, [preposition] + [noun as preposition’s object], would be an adjective phrase.) It is a proper name, a noun, in the possessive case. As **Balance** points out, “the possessive acts as an adjective,” in the sense that it describes another noun (_genius_) as would an actual adjective. But _Toni Morrison’s_ is still a noun, and is perfectly capable of being a pronoun’s antecedent. The antecedent of _her_, which is a pronoun in the objective case, is _Toni Morrison’s_–which, in the subjective or objective case, would be simply _Toni Morrison_–not _genius_. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/17 "2003-05-16T10:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saltire \* > \*\*So let me get this straight. From the point of view of those protesting the question, the sentence would be more properly written thus: > > “Toni Morrison’s genius enables it to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured.” > > Is that what they’re saying? \*\* No. They are saying that the sentence should be rewritten as **Balance** suggests: “The genius of Toni Morrison enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured.” ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/18 "2003-05-16T10:40:31Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > Originally posted by Saltire > So let me get this straight. From the point of view of those protesting the question, the sentence would be more properly written thus: > > “Toni Morrison’s genius enables it to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured.” > > ## Is that what they’re saying? > > No. They are saying that the sentence should be rewritten as Balance suggests: “The genius of Toni Morrison enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured.” Or, maintaining the original sentence structure: “Toni Morrison’s genius enables Morrison to create…”. I’m a sub-editor and I think this is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/19 "2003-05-16T13:12:48Z")
Yeah – the first story I read on this made me think that the PSAT board was smoking crack. If, however, they’ve thrown the answer out to protect people whose teachers taught them an old and frowned-upon construction, then I can respect that. A side note: if “Toni Morrison’s” is an adjective, then every word listed as an adjective in the dictionary should also be listed as an adverb. For example, **red** can be an adverb, as in the sentence, “The red dog’s tongue laps water from a bowl.” In this sentence, **red** modifies **dog’s**. If **dog’s** is a noun, then **red** is necessarily an adjective – only adjectives modify nouns. However, if **dog’s** is an adjective, then **red** is necessarily an adverb – only adverbs modify adjectives. For similar reasons, “dog’s” may sometimes be an adverb: “The red dog’s owner’s house is very messy.” Balderdash! Tommyrot! “Dog’s,” “owner’s,” and “Toni Morrison’s” are nouns in the possessive case. Daniel PS The IMHO thread on this subject is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=184238) ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540/20 "2003-05-16T13:30:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*A side note: if “Toni Morrison’s” is an adjective, then every word listed as an adjective in the dictionary should also be listed as an adverb. > > . . . . > > For similar reasons, “dog’s” may sometimes be an adverb: “The red dog’s owner’s house is very messy.”\*\* Excellent points, **DanielWithrow**. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flawed-psat-grammar-question/175540.md?page=2)