# Fleischer, Whitman, Marin; coincidence or warning sign? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226 "2003-05-24T14:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/21 "2003-05-24T22:14:05Z")
The campaign in afghanistan didn’t even define an enemy. I consider a war to at least include a clear definition of the enemy. Vietnam was against a committed enemy who had a lot of popular support within the country. It was also Jungle warfare as opposed to open desert, which makes a huge difference as far as air support. I still maintain that the invasion of Iraq owes more to an ocean of difference in technology than it does to any individual tactics. It’s much easier to subdue an enemy when you can carpet bomb them first, and it doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. As it was, Franks did fuck some things up, he didn’t send enough initial ground support, and the ones he did send were mostly Reservists, not full-time soldiers. Everything that happened after the occupation of Baghdad was a fiasco, particuarly the looting of the Baghdad museum. But that’s neither here nor there. Any reasonbally competent general was going to be successful. It would have taken a collossal incompetent to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/22 "2003-05-24T22:15:47Z")
reasonably not “reasonablly” ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/23 "2003-05-24T22:22:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*Afghanistan should have been a wake-up call for Saddam. How many years did the Russians fight the Taliban (to a withdrawal) and how many weeks did the US take to crush them. \*\* You are forgetting that military operations are political. The amount of military force necessary to carry out a plan is based not only upon the military capabilities of your opponents but also upon the strength of their opposition to your political goals. The Soviets were trying to conquer and hold Afganistan and were fighting not just the Taliban but all the other warlords as well. The US was just trying to kick out the Taliban and had the other warlords on its side. If the US were attempting what the Soviets had tried we would have been faced with far greater resistance. In other words you are comparing apples to oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/24 "2003-05-24T22:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The campaign in afghanistan didn’t even define an enemy. \*\* Buncha guys called the Taliban, you might have heard of them. They were the ones running Afghanistan when we began blowing things up, they were the ones we were trying to kill along with this guy named Osama Bin Laden. You might have heard of him as well. Last I checked, our plan was to get those guys and not just any random shmucks wandering around Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > I consider a war to at least include a clear definition of the enemy. As _any_ combat veteran will tell you, the “enemy” is clearly defined as that guy shooting at you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/25 "2003-05-24T23:02:33Z")
Oh. So what’s “friendly fire”, then? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/26 "2003-05-24T23:07:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Oh. So what’s “friendly fire”, then? \*\* A mistake, and one, unfortunately, with sometimes fatal consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Semp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Semp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Semp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/27 "2003-05-25T03:33:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*And yeah, the US vs Iraq _was_ a turkey shoot… \*\* Please don’t tell the Kurds that, the situation is complicated enough! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/28 "2003-05-27T17:14:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zuma \* > High-ranking officials resign or are fired all the time. Oh, I know. It’s just the three-in-the- **same** -week aspect that raised my eyebrows. > [@](#): > > I’ll take Ari on his word, His is the _last_ person whose word I’d take at face value. 😉 Well, him and the Iraqi Informationm Minister’s… > [@](#): > > Of course you cannot resign/be fired in a time of war/national emergency. Is this a specific law, or just a general convention? > [@](#): > > Hell, Powell would have been out a long time ago if not for circumstances. Agreed; I’m somewhat surprised he’s still hanging in there. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/29 "2003-05-27T17:23:02Z")
IIRC it’s the convention that officials who don’t want to stay for a second term leave well before the election campaign. That would account for the string of departures. Of the three only Whitman’s departure might present a problem for the administration in that as a moderate, female Republican she is the kind of person that they need to attract swing voters. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/30 "2003-05-27T17:47:21Z")
Some of you sound as if the war in Iraq is over just because someone’s declared victory. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226/31 "2003-05-27T18:36:24Z")
December 22, 1994, Lloyd Bentsen resigned as Secretary of Treasury. December 31, 1994, Mike Espy resigned as Secretary of Agriculture. Not 3 people at essentially the same time, but 2 cabinet secretaries is pretty big. From January 10 until January 23, 1997, the following all left their positions (some for other positions in the administration): Robert Reich, Warren Christopher, Hazel O’Leary, Federico Pena, Mickey Cantor, William Perry. Granted, that group fits in with the change between first and second term, but it seems to illustrate the point that resignations tend to happen at times that are appropriate for change. In the instance of the 3 in the Bush White House, I imagine they happened at the same general time because a major overseas conflict had ended, Bush had just finished with major economic policy, and the political landscape is in a calm before an election storm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fleischer-whitman-marin-coincidence-or-warning-sign/177226.md?page=1)