Flight and the Conveyor Belt

No. No, no, no, no, no.

Draw a damned force diagram, instead of thinking about it in your head. It is so damn easy to understand physics once you have to put it on paper and make computations.

The wheels can turn any damn speed they want; their speed isn’t in any way important to the velocity of the jogger relative to a position outside the treadmill. The treadmill can only impart force upon the WHEELS; they then turn. The fact they are turning isn’t important to the jogger at all, other than the fact that he hopes to God they don’t stop turning (by, for instance, having the bearings explode), so that the belt suddenly DOES impart force to the jogger. The damn belt can co as fast as it wants, and it’s totally irrelevant to the jogger, once the system overcomes the intitial force of static friction (a very minor issue).

I’ll repeat one last time for all readers who fail still to understand the reason the Column got the right answer:

DRAW THE DIAGRAM!!!

I think we are not the ones who are confused.

Nothing to add but my disappointment that Unca Cecil picked this relatively silly non-issue when he finally decided to address something that we have hashed out here on the SDMB.

Why couldn’t he tackle something important that we’ve discussed here? Even “steaming cups o’ Fido j— in Garfield” seems (IMHO) more worthy of his omniscient attentions.

Sorry if this seem like it belongs in the Pit – I didn’t mean it that way. I’m just looking forward to the next time one of our discussions generates a public response from the Perfect Master, and hoping that it will have nothing to do with treadmills and airplanes (at least not in combination).

OK, I understand now. That makes sense. The wheels don’t affect the plane as much (or at least the same ratio) as the treadmill affects the wheels.

“I think not that we are the confused who aren’t confused not that confusing isn’t what we are not.”

I didn’t use that statement to imply that any of you were stupid. I was saying that you were confused PROBABLY because I worded it very badly, a part of my sentence you so eloguently left out.

There’s nothing wrong with Cecil’s answer, per se, but, unfortunately, it just doesn’t explain things very well.

Now, he’s clearly correct when he agrees that “the question is often worded badly, leading to confusion, arguments, etc.” But that’s part of the problem: Cecil himself doesn’t clearly state exactly what question he’s answering.

Poor Analogy
Case in point: his use of the car analogy. Cecil states: “if the conveyor moves backward at the same rate that the car’s wheels rotate forward, the net result is that the car remains stationary (my italics).” Completely true–nothing wrong with that. However, note this very important fact: in the situation described, the car’s engine is essentially doing no work. It’s providing only enough power to overcome bearing friction.

Then Cecil compares this situation to that of a plane with the engines at full thrust, and notes the different result. This shouldn’t be surprising: Of course things are different when you start with different circumstances. If the analogy were truly parallel, he’d compare the case where the car engine provides only enough power to overcome bearing friction with the case where the plane engine provides only enough power to overcome bearing friction. In that case, the plane would remain stationary, as there’s no thrust left over for acceleration.

Begging the Question
Next, Cecil simply begs the question. Remember the situation is one where “the conveyor moves backward at the same rate that the … wheels rotate forward.” In answer to this situation, Cecil baldly states the following: “Once the pilot fires up the engines, the plane moves forward at pretty much the usual speed relative to the ground–and more importantly the air–regardless of how fast the conveyor belt is moving backward.” Again, not precisely wrong: the answer here depends specifilcally on the assumptions that you make. But Cecil doesn’t state his assumptions, and, more tellingly, violates the condition of the thought experiment.

It’s clear that if you interpret the condition that “the conveyor moves backward at the same rate that the… wheels rotate forward” as meaning that the conveyor speed match the speed of the exterior of the tire, the plane/car will remain stationary (like the car analogy specifically states). There are a number of reasons why this condition might not reasonably hold, but Cecil needs to state those reasons, not just ignore it with no explanation.

Ignoring Physics/Not Stating Assumptions
Finally, Cecil serves up this, calling it a paradox: “If the plane moves forward at 5 MPH, then its wheels will do likewise, and the treadmill will go 5 MPH backward. But if the treadmill is going 5 MPH backward, then the wheels are really turning 10 MPH forward. But if the wheels are going 10 MPH forward… Soon the foolish have persuaded themselves that the treadmill must operate at infinite speed.” Again, not wrong, necessarily, but it depends on your assumptions.

If you assume massless wheels and no friction, then Cecil’s analysis is correct. However, those are large assumptions, and should be stated. The fact that they’re not stated at all leads me to believe Cecil simply didn’t account for them, in which case his conclusion is misleading at best, and flat-out wrong at worst. If the plane has wheels of any mass, the treadmill will rotationally accelerate them, speeding up at a rate governed by the engine thrust. No infinite speeds required.

Conclusion
Let me sum up:
[ul][li]Not actually wrong, but:[/li][li]Piss-poor analogy[/li][li]Begging the question[/li][li]No statement of assumptions[/li][li]Violation of the conditions of the experiment[/li][li]Ignoring rotational acceleration[/li][/ul]

Did I forget anything?

Yes, but no one is suggesting that the conveyor belt will cause the plane to remain stationary. The question is not “will the plane lift off if caused to remain stationary relative to the air by way of a giant conveyor belt?” but “will the plane thrust forward through the air if on a conveyor belt?”

It will (assuming wheel friction is negligible).

I believe that is true but misleading. The engine in a car moving at a fixed speed only needs to do enough work to overcome bearing friction, rolling friction, and air resistance. That is true whether it is on a road or a conveyer be. The only difference is a car on a conveyor belt that remains stationary relative to the ground will not have air resistance since the car is not moving relative to the atmosphere.

Propellers shove air backwards in prop planes but how much air is shoved over the wings from a single prop centered on a small plane? Not enough air is going past the wings until the entire plane is shoved through the air.

Jet turbines do not exaclty shove air. They shove exhaust which is a compressed and ignited mixture of air and fuel to create thrust. The air is used only for oxygen. Many of these jets shove a small focused blast behind the plane and behind the wings. they shove no air past the wings until the entire plane is shoved through the air.

And don’t forget rocket planes. Similar to jets but carrying oxygen rockets need no air and shove no air. They shove the plane through the air.

So Cecil how does a rocket shove air? Thrust shoves planes through air. That is what provides lift. Cecil do you understand now that engines only shove air to provide thrust?

Imagine a plane with no jets, no props and no rockets, no thrust at all, no air shoved across any part of the plane without airspeed. Now imagine the wheels have enough power to them to move the plane fast enough for take off. Of course it wont get far since the wheels cant provide thrust after takeoff. But this plane would take off from a real runway but never the treadmill.

Nooo-- Strafe, you had it right the first time, but you and everyone else (including Cecil,) are being drawn in by the red herrings of a poorly worded question. Simplify the question to its simplest elements and you’ll realise that you’re describing a wing with zero ground speed. Esentially a wing in a wind tunnel with the fan turned off (Assuming no wind and no humongous front mounted propeller.) No wind and no movement in the Y axis means no lift and no movement in the X axis— the rest is just window dressing.

Nooo-- Strafe, you had it right the first time, but you and everyone else (including Cecil,) are being drawn in by the red herrings of a poorly worded question. Simplify the question to its elements and you’ll realise that you’re describing a wing with zero ground speed. Esentially a wing in a wind tunnel with the fan turned off (Assuming no wind and no humongous front mounted propeller.) No wind and no movement in the Y axis means no lift and no movement in the X axis— the rest is just window dressing.

I see a whole bunch of comments in this thread that look a little like these:

The gist of these comments being that the conveyor belt cannot impart enough force to the plane to counteract the thrust of the plane’s engine. This could be true, if you assume either (a) some real-world limitations on the acceleration of the belt, or (b) that the wheels are massless. Either of these is a perfectly fine assumption.

However, without those assumptions, there is a coupling betwee the belt and the plane through the acceleration of the wheels. If the belt accelerates, it will impart a force on the wheel, accelerating the wheel. The wheel will in turn impart this force on the plane. If the acceleration is high enough, the force will counteract the force of the engine thrust.

It’s perfectly fine to conclude that this force will never, in a real situation, be large enough to equal that from the engine. But you’ve got to state that assumption up front; you can’t just ignore the angular acceleration.

And a few miscellaneous comments:

He’s not talking about external weather conditions. He’s talking about air entrained in a (presumably) fast-moving, mile-long conveyor belt. A quibble, perhaps, but a potentially real effect.

Depends. If you interpret “if the conveyor moves backward at the same rate that the car’s wheels rotate forward” (quote from Cecil’s column) as forcing the treadmill to move at the same rate the tire exterior moves, that would force the plane to be stationary.

It’s not obvious, since Cecil specifically describes two different scenarios in the final paragraph.

Sure, but…that’s not a very interesting question. Does anyone really thing that the plane won’t take off if the question is interpreted to allow the plane to move forward at 100mph, while the treadmill goes backwards? I mean, you’re absolutely right, but it’s just not an interesting question.

Well, seriously, it took me some thought to work through what would happen, taking into account various assumptions/ It’s not obvious, once you lay out all the nitpicky details, exactly what will happen. Ya gotta think about it.

I should point out I’m wrong here–as was pointed out to me in the other thread (and I forgot to correct) the power for accelerating the wheels comes from the treadmill, not the plane. Sorry.

I do believe that when a car is on a treadmill that is synched to the speed of the car (which I think is the sense of the analogy in the column), then the treadmill will provide the power to overcome rolling resistance, because the treadmill is continually, actively adjusting to match the tire speed and maintain a car speed of zero. Thus, the car on the treadmill has to overcome neither air resistance nor rolling resistance–only bearing friction. (I admit I’m not completely certain of this, so I’d welcome comment.)

the only reason a real plane would take off from the treadmill is because thrust would move the plane fwd anyway

the treadmill would not keep it back unless it was propelled by wheels in which case cecil has the right answer for the wrong reason.

not all engines shove air
and the ones that do only do it to provide thrust NOT lift

If the plane was propelled by the wheels then and only then the would the treadmill be able to keep it stationary. A treadmill wouldn’t match acceleration from thrust.

A wheel propelled plane could be kept stationary by the treadmill and have no airpseed over the wings and therfore no lift. Of course a wheeled propelled plane would stay in the air very long after lauching from a regular airstrip.

As with many things, the answer to this came to me as I was explaining something complex to my four-year-old. So in that vein, I will attempt to explain this in as simple terms as I can.

Take a plane, any plane, and put it on a conveyor belt. Then start the conveyor belt. Don’t turn on the engine(s) yet, just set the conveyor to any old speed, and watch what happens. The plane doesn’t move. The wheels spin, the plane stays put.

If you don’t believe me, try it yourself. Put your bike on your treadmill, and dial in a speed. Any speed. You’ll stay stationary, and the wheels will start turning. Assuming you have a decent bike with well greased bearings, your inertia will keep you basically in place, and the wheels on the bike go round and round, round and round … Sorry bout that. I think I used a “science” word in that last sentence. Still not convinced, Lance? Hit the brake. Now you’ll see the action of the conveyor belt on the bike. Some spackle will take care of the wall, and your co-pay should take care of you.

Now, jump back in your plane, and start the conveyor. At first, nothing’s going to happen, just like your bike on the treadmill. But as you rev up your engines, the plane is going to inch forward, just like any other plane taking off from the tarmac. The wheels are going to spin even faster than before, and presumable, by Elfin magic, the conveyor is going to go even faster too. Doesn’t matter. They can go as fast as they want, or need to go.

Now assuming you’ve got a couple thousand feet of conveyor belt in front of you, there should be plenty of runway for a beautiful take off … assuming you’ve got nominal weather conditions and a proper certification for that plane you’re flying.

From the tower, your takeoff will look just like every other plane, except that a really observant onlooker will notice your wheels turning really, really fast. And of course the giant conveyor belt you’ve left behind in the middle of the airport after your departure.

If anything, the conveyor belt itself is the “red herring” here. The speed it rotates, the speed of the plane’s wheels, the magical speed calibration thingy, the math, the aerodynamics, it’s all crap designed to obfuscate the simplicity of the model, and confuse listener. I like it !

Now excuse me while I resume talking to my seven-year-old about how thermodynamics affects the tase of Mommy’s cooking.

I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make here. No one here is suggesting that the plane’s engines provide lift directly (as opposed to thrust).

Engine thrust is engine thrust. Period. No airplane engine operates by directing air over the wings of the plane.

All of the engines you have described (props, jet engines, and rockets) operate by reaction forces in accordance with Newton’s Third Law of Motion.

Bringing in a “wheel-driven plane” is a red herring, as no airplane has powered wheels.

I used the exact same analogy as you in the December thread.

Unfortunately, I was wrong, and so are you.

It takes a force (actually a torque) to make the wheels spin, assuming your wheels have mass. This force is transmitted to the plane via the axles. Your plane therefore does not stay put. It accelerates backwards. This happens even if the wheel bearings are frictionless.

Actually, as the treadmill starts up and accelerates backwards, you and your bike will also go backwards unless you hang on to an external fixed object (like a wall).

That will produce a force in the forward direction to counterbalance the backward force exerted on your bike by the treadmill.

And as I stated above, there must be a force exerted on your bicycle’s wheels to make them turn in the first place.