# Flight crew with guns; still a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594 "2008-03-24T21:16:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/61 "2008-03-28T19:47:21Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Why? That just moves the gun closer to the potantial terrorists, into an area which they are at times also allowed into. [/QUOTE] If there are terrorists the unarmed pilot is useless. (how often are these guys pissing anyway? šŸ˜› ) These pilots are also trained in defensive tactics, including weapon retention. This occurrance has proven that the current regulation isnā€™t a good idea. Why argue in favor of it? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/62 "2008-03-28T20:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] If there are terrorists the unarmed pilot is useless. (how often are these guys pissing anyway? šŸ˜› ) These pilots are also trained in defensive tactics, including weapon retention. This occurrance has proven that the current regulation isnā€™t a good idea. Why argue in favor of it? [/QUOTE] I wasnā€™t arguing in favor of it. I was arguing against your alternative. I will _certainly_ agree that any scheme that involves a lock that has a chance of _pulling the trigger_ :eek: is desperately in need of at least _some_ correction. Anyway, if there _arenā€™t_ terrorists, then carrying around the gun is useless, so letā€™s enertain the possibility that there might be some, shall we? If there _are_ terrorists, then yes, the unarmed pilot is ā€œuselessā€. That puts him in exactly the same category as the flight attendants and passengers - that is, everyone whoā€™s outside the cockpit. So, if a terrorist got the pissing pilot, Iā€™d expect the remaining pilot to keep the door locked and carry on with flying the plane alone, just as he would if the terrorist got anyone else outside the cockpit. I would expect him to do this even if the pilot outside _had_ a gun; the only significant difference being that, in that case, the terrorist now has the pilotā€™s gun too. It certainly is reassuring that the pilots are trained in defending themselves. Iā€™m still not convinced they canā€™t _possibly_ be subdued when they leave the cockpit to go to the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/63 "2008-03-28T20:41:12Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] It certainly is reassuring that the pilots are trained in defending themselves. Iā€™m still not convinced they canā€™t _possibly_ be subdued when they leave the cockpit to go to the bathroom. [/QUOTE] The problem with your synopsis, however, would make for the same argument that cops shouldnā€™t be armed (because the bad guy might get his gun). And though that sometimes does happen, in a dangerous situation itā€™s far better to be armed and have that minuteā€™ risk than to not be armed at all. If the weapon absolutely MUST remain inside the cockpit one alternative that I might find acceptable could be to have the pistol locked on a permanent wall bracket inside the cockpit in the same manner that shotguns are locked on a bracket inside police squad cars. That way the pilots arenā€™t screwing around taking it on and off and such, and would only remove it in case of emergency. It would be locked via a combo lock, not a key which terrorists could get if they overpowered them. Another way would be to have a small gun locker, the same type that cops use to lock up their weapon when going into the lock up area of the station or jail. They make us take our entire duty belt off and put it in there. The weapon remains in the holster with the trigger/trigger guard covered. Iā€™d rather the pilots be carrying at all times though, and the hell with this Mickey Mouse shit. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/64 "2008-03-28T20:54:54Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] Now that one has me. Of the zillions of handgun holsters I owned/have owned, Iā€™ve never had one where the lock went through the holster itself. Can somebody please post a picture of this type of holster? Iā€™d like to see what it looks like! [/QUOTE] I guess I have seen [THESE](http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=1911) before, I just never saw one with the lock on. If you look up the instructions that come with the holster they say _ā€œDo not use trigger lock with **loaded** handgun as accidental discharge may result.ā€_ Duh. Who would think that was a good idea? This is so obviously stupid. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/65 "2008-03-28T20:55:07Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] The problem with your synopsis, however, would make for the same argument that cops shouldnā€™t be armed (because the bad guy might get his gun). And though that sometimes does happen, in a dangerous situation itā€™s far better to be armed and have that minuteā€™ risk than to not be armed at all. [/QUOTE] Poor analogy - cops go to where the trouble is, ergo they need to bring their armaments with them; the pilots are essentially defending a secured _location_, and so the weaponry need not travel. Heck, it could be permanently mounted to a tripod bolted to the floor and be essentially as effective in is purpose (aside from being horribly in the way and inconvenient for use.) [QUOTE=pkbites] If the weapon absolutely MUST remain inside the cockpit one alternative that I might find acceptable could be to have the pistol locked on a permanent wall bracket inside the cockpit in the same manner that shotguns are locked on a bracket inside police squad cars. That way the pilots arenā€™t screwing around taking it on and off and such, and would only remove it in case of emergency. It would be locked via a combo lock, not a key which terrorists could get if they overpowered them. Another way would be to have a small gun locker, the same type that cops use to lock up their weapon when going into the lock up area of the station or jail. They make us take our entire duty belt off and put it in there. The weapon remains in the holster with the trigger/trigger guard covered. [/QUOTE] Either of these solutions sounds fine to me. [QUOTE=pkbites] Iā€™d rather the pilots be carrying at all times though, and the hell with this Mickey Mouse shit. [/QUOTE] You are entitled to your opinion. Iā€™d just want to keep the chances of a terrorist taking a gun from the pilot as low as possible, while hopefully reducing the chance of the pilot shooting holes in the cockpit himself a bit too. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/66 "2008-03-28T21:18:25Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] I guess I have seen [THESE](http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=1911) before, I just never saw one with the lock on. If you look up the instructions that come with the holster they say _ā€œDo not use trigger lock with **loaded** handgun as accidental discharge may result.ā€_ Duh. Who would think that was a good idea? This is so obviously stupid. [/QUOTE] Holy fucking shit. :eek: Itā€™s completely clear that this is pretty much entirely the TSAā€™s fault now. I should have figured, I suppose, but this is really beyond the pale, even for them. I honestly cannot believe anyone thought this could be a good idea. A **combination padlock** through the trigger guard of a **loaded firearm** that is installed and removed _multiple times_ during a flight?!?! Why do they need a padlock in the first place? Donā€™t they have some kind of locker they can put the gun in? I sure hope they donā€™t use the padlock while carrying; in addition to recklessly increasing the possibility of an accidental discharge, it would make the gun _completely fucking useless in an emergency_. ā€œTerrorists breaking into the cockpit? Uh-oh! Let me just, uh, fiddle with my combination lock hereā€¦ā€ I second **pkbites** ā€™s suggestion; just keep the gun in a decent retention holster, and remove the belt/holster completely when the pilot leaves the cockpit. That way the gun stays loaded and ready, but the trigger is **never** exposed or fucked with until there is a need to use it. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/67 "2008-03-28T21:37:10Z")
[QUOTE=Stealth Potato] Holy fucking shit. :eek: [/QUOTE] My thoughts exactly [QUOTE=Stealth Potato] Itā€™s completely clear that this is pretty much entirely the TSAā€™s [/QUOTE] Which is why I retract my past post blaming the pilot. This thing is just an accident waiting to happen. [QUOTE=Stealth Potato] I second **pkbites** ā€™s suggestion; just keep the gun in a decent retention holster, and remove the belt/holster completely when the pilot leaves the cockpit. That way the gun stays loaded and ready, but the trigger is **never** exposed or fucked with until there is a need to use it. [/QUOTE] Overall Iā€™d rather they just keep it on, concealed. Proper weapon retention training minutesā€™ worries of terrorists getting it away from them. But if theres no chance of that, do what we have to do here. When I have to transport someone to the county jail, there are small lockers in the sally port area. You do not take your firearm out of itā€™s holster. You put your entire duty belt in the locker. Pepper spray, baton, extra mags, firearm, everything stays on the belt. No body has ever had an accidental discharge doing this. If all these pilots have is a holster on a regular pants belt, undo the belt, slide the holster off the belt, and into the gun safe. Firearm remains inside the holster at all times. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/68 "2008-03-28T21:59:39Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] These pilots are also trained in defensive tactics, including weapon retention. [/QUOTE] There are also service and high rise holsters with passive retention systems that make it very difficult for anyone but the wearer to draw the weapon. It would, however, be difficult to draw from such a gun from a seated position, I think. Alternatively, the firearm could be worn in a paddle holster that can be removed as a unit and locked up. There is no reason for the pilot to be handling the unsecured weapon, or a weapon with a lock through the trigger guard during flight. [QUOTE=pkbites] This occurrance has proven that the current regulation isnā€™t a good idea. Why argue in favor of it? [/QUOTE] Agreed. If there is a weapon on the flight deck, it needs to be secured, either to a bulkhead, or on the pilot at all times in some kind of high retention crossdraw holster. However, I remain unpersuaded that it substantially improves security at all as opposed to simply securing the flight deck against intrusion. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/69 "2008-03-28T22:03:02Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] However, I remain unpersuaded that it substantially improves security at all as opposed to simply securing the flight deck against intrusion. Stranger [/QUOTE] Well, of course we keep the door locked most of the time _too_. This is just to avoid trying to talk the pilots into using chamber pots. (Are there any other circumstances during which the door is opened while in flight?) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/70 "2008-03-29T01:44:45Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Well, of course we keep the door locked most of the time _too_. This is just to avoid trying to talk the pilots into using chamber pots. (Are there any other circumstances during which the door is opened while in flight?) [/QUOTE] checking on problems with the A/C. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/71 "2008-03-29T01:52:46Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] This is just to avoid trying to talk the pilots into using chamber pots. [/QUOTE] [What wonā€™t they think of next?](http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=297&CATID=178). Thereā€™s an adapter for women, too. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/72 "2008-03-29T16:15:31Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] or on the pilot at all times in some kind of high retention crossdraw holster. [/QUOTE] Crossdraw? No need for that. Unless the individual pilot feels more comfortable drawing that way. I can easily draw my pistol while sitting in the drivers seat, and Iā€™m a southpaw. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594/73 "2008-03-29T23:54:07Z")
If this is such a problem, the front seat of every plane should have a trained and armed guard in a turret facing passengers. He should have mace and non lethal weapons. Its hard enough to keep the pilots sober when they drive the plane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flight-crew-with-guns-still-a-good-idea/442594.md?page=3)