# Flint expands the definition of indecent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835 "2008-07-09T15:11:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/1 "2008-07-09T15:11:26Z")
Flint .Mich. police chief David Dicks (real name) has ordered his officers to ticket or arrest people (kids) who wear their pants low enough to expose their underwear. He declares it a public nuisance and indecent exposure. The fine up to 500 dollars. Jail time can be 93 days. I wonder if it would qualify for a listing on sexual predator lists. His definition…down and exposing underwear =disorderly conduct skin of buttock showing =indecent exposure merely showing top of underwear =a warning ticket Can he get away with this? I am sure judges just can’t wait to get pulled into this trap. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/2 "2008-07-09T15:34:21Z")
But… I love looking at guy’s underwear. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![StinkyBurrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@StinkyBurrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StinkyBurrito)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/3 "2008-07-09T15:47:02Z")
Could I walk around Flint in nothing but a Speedo and flip-flops? If yes, then this law won’t hold much water IMHO. Should we call the cops everytime a construction worker or a plumber bends over? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/4 "2008-07-09T15:49:18Z")
1. Lots of jurisdictions have been adopting sagging pants ordinances: [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/30/fashion/30baggy.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/30/fashion/30baggy.html) 2. At least one court has found that wearing sagging pants is not protected speech under the First Amendement: Bivens v. Albuquerque Pub. Schs., 899 F.Supp. 556, 560-61 (D.N.M. 1995) (wearing sagging pants is not speech for First Amendment purposes) cited in [Hodge v. Lynd](http://www.ahcuah.com/lawsuit/federal/hodge.htm) The issue is the subject of at least one law school moot court competition: [Sitemap | University of Wisconsin Law School](http://hosted.law.wisc.edu/mootcourt/evans/2008/briefs_2008.html) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/5 "2008-07-09T18:56:54Z")
I’d have thought the police would be glad of this baggy-assed fashion fad? Surely felons are easier to catch when their pants are half-way down their legs already? ---
**Author:** ![jk1245](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@jk1245](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jk1245)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/6 "2008-07-09T19:01:24Z")
IANAL, but isn’t “indecent exposure” defined statutorily? The police chief can’t decide what is or isn’t (or can he)? I suppose it could be a case of “this law exists, and we’ve largely ignored it up to now, but not anymore”, but typically the police don’t get to issue legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/7 "2008-07-09T19:12:35Z")
I hope they’ve got a crack enforcement squad. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/8 "2008-07-09T19:17:05Z")
I see teens and young men in their early 20s walking through my neighborhood with one hand on their crotch or their belt in order to keep their pants from falling to the ground. I remember people with baggy pants when I was younger but they didn’t sag so much that you had to keep your hands on your drawers to make sure they didn’t fall down. What’s up with this fashion? Marc ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/9 "2008-07-09T19:19:13Z")
Go Flint! I am sure they can turn themselves around with this. Next enforcement target - jay walking for the drug dealers on Saginaw St.! Whoo hoo!! ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/10 "2008-07-09T19:23:36Z")
It’s part of the disorderly conduct ordinance: > [@](#): > > § 31-12 DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND DISORDERLY PERSONS. > > ``` > A person is a disorderly person if the person does any of the following: > > (a) (1) Commits an assault or battery upon any person. > > (2) Commits an assault or an assault and battery upon a spouse, former spouse, or a person residing or having resided in the same household as the perpetrator. This subsection shall be enforced in accordance with MCL §§ 750.81, 764.15a and 769.4a. > > (b) Engages in any fight in a public place except when doing so solely in self-defense. > > (c) Remains in any public place after its regular closing hours after being told to leave by one authorized to give such order. > > (d) Conducts himself in any public place, or joins with one or more persons in a public place, if he knows or should know that, singly or together with others with whom he has joined, he is unreasonably obstructing the free and uninterrupted passage of the public along any street or sidewalk, provided that this subsection is not to be interpreted to conflict with the regulations of the National Labor Relations Board regarding picketing in labor disputes. > > (e) Persists in disturbing the public peace and quiet by loud or aggressive conduct, having once been clearly informed by persons affected that he is in fact unreasonably causing such a disturbance, provided, however, that notice need not be given when such persons affected reasonably believe that to do so would constitute a risk to their personal safety. > > (f) Persists in disturbing the peace and orderly conduct of any meeting of a public body or any meeting open to the general public by any conduct or communication which by its very existence inflicts injury or tends to incite an immediate breach of peace or which prevents the peaceful and orderly conduct of such meeting after having been clearly informed that he is in fact unreasonably causing such disturbance. > > (g) Knowingly transports any person, for consideration, or the offer of consideration, to a place where the business of prostitution, gambling, or illegal sale of liquor or a controlled substance is carried on, for the purpose of enabling such person to be a customer of any such business. > > (h) Knowingly harasses any other person. HARASS is defined as any repeated nonverbal conduct which is specifically intended to frighten, embarrass, or anger the person who is or persons who are the object of such conduct, or which the person accused has reason to know is likely to produce such reactions or any repeated verbal communication which by its very utterance inflicts injury or incites an immediate breach of peace. > > (i) Urinates or defecates on any public street or sidewalk, or on the floor of that part of any building open to the public or any other place in view of the public not specifically designated for that purpose. > > (j) Throws any object from any moving vehicle, or toward any person or moving vehicle if he knows or should now that damage to person or property, or alarm which may foreseeably produce damage to person or property, is likely to result. > > (k) Knowingly destroys, damages or defaces or removes any public property or other property not his own. > > (l) Summons, without good reason therefor, by telephone or otherwise, the Police or Fire Department, any public or private ambulance, or any other service of any kind, to go to any address where the service call is not needed. > > (m) Knowingly takes possession of and rides or takes away any bicycle, without the express or implied permission of the owner. > > (n) For the purposes of this section, PUBLIC PLACE means any street, alley, park, government- owned or government-controlled building, common hallway or public room of any dwelling greater than two units, or any other place to which the public has lawful access, as well as any motor vehicle used to provide public transportation. Masculine pronouns in this section shall be construed to include both male and female persons. > > ``` > > \*\* (o) Intentionally makes or causes to be made any open exposure of the human male or female genitals, pubic area, buttocks or female breast in any street, alley, park, sidewalk, public building, school or building open to or frequented by the public or any other place that is open to the public view or to which the public has access.\*\* > > ``` > (p) Loiters, frequents, or remains on or in any public place or private property: > > (i) for the purpose of unlawfully using, possessing, offering for sale, selling, furnishing or dispensing any controlled substance and/or drug paraphernalia, or > > (ii) who has knowledge that controlled substances and/or drug paraphernalia are, or recently have been, unlawfully used, possessed, offered for sale, sold, dispensed furnished given away or stored on or near said property. > > As used in this section: > > (i) CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE. Defined in the controlled substances act of the state of Michigan, MCLA §§ 333.7101 et seq., being MSA §§ 14.15(7101) et seq., as amended. > > (ii) DRUG PARAPHERNALIA. Any item which is used or intended for use with a controlled substance. USED OR INTENDED FOR USE WITH A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE means: > > (1) The item was primarily designed or adapted, because of its objective physical features, for use with a controlled substance; or > > (2) The item was intended by an individual for use with a controlled substance; or > > (3) An individual would know, or should have known, that the item was intended for use with a controlled substance. > > ``` > > (Ord. 2641, passed 5-22-78; Am. Ord. 2670, passed 10-23-78; Am. Ord. 2943, passed 2-11-85; Am. Ord. 3011, passed 10-13-86; Am. Ord. 3116, passed 10-9-89; Am. Ord. 3165, passed 4-22-91; Am. Ord. 3192, passed 1-13-92) [http://www.amlegal.com/library/mi/flint.shtml](http://www.amlegal.com/library/mi/flint.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/11 "2008-07-09T19:55:18Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Flint .Mich. [/QUOTE] Phew! I thought you were talking about _Larry_ Flint, and I was all like “Hell, yeah!” ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/12 "2008-07-10T04:03:51Z")
I guess the crime rate in Flint is so low that the police have to invent new activities to pass their time. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/13 "2008-07-10T04:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon] Phew! I thought you were talking about _Larry_ Flint, and I was all like “Hell, yeah!” [/QUOTE] Me too. I was thinking “Larry Flynt found a _new_ way to be indecent!?!?” I couldn’t wait to open the thread and see what it was! ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/14 "2008-07-10T05:01:28Z")
That’s exactly why I came here as well, to see what Larry Flynt was up to now. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/15 "2008-07-10T05:05:03Z")
Intellectually, I disagree with this position. Emotionally, I’m going “HELL, Yeah!!!” Nothing makes me itch to smack someone silly so much as seeing a kid walking down the street with 3/4 of his underwear showing and his pants crotch down to his knees. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/16 "2008-07-10T05:21:56Z")
According to the Detroit Free Press, Flint PD released [this helpful diagram](http://freep.com/uploads/images/2008/07/saggychart0709.jpg) to show what the various stages of violation are. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/17 "2008-07-10T05:53:12Z")
This is a classic demonstration of why it’s so much better for people to just behave decently, rather than trying to legislate decency. Everyone would be happier if men could just dress reasonably. Trying to enforce such a thing by law will make everyone who gets involved unhappy. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/18 "2008-07-10T07:00:36Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] I guess the crime rate in Flint is so low that the police have to invent new activities to pass their time. [/QUOTE] And their budget is clearly too large. I suggest that the city reclaim some money by cutting the police chief’s salary in half. I’ve never seen anyone walking around with his pants under his underwear. If exposing underwear is legal (which it seems to be) wouldn’t a warning for doing something legal be harassment? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/19 "2008-07-10T13:44:50Z")
IME the saggy pants thing is (finally) wanning, anyway. Either the police chief is just an idiot or this is a matter of ordering the tide to recede when you noticed it was already on its way out–not a bad plan, really. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835/20 "2008-07-10T13:49:49Z")
I’m not usually one to cry racism, but this seems an awful lot like “oh, those young black men are always guilty of _something_, and they all wear those falling-down pants; let’s get them on that and see what else we can dredge up” :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flint-expands-the-definition-of-indecent/455835.md?page=2)