# Flip flopper supreme **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 1, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091 "2012-08-01T19:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/41 "2012-08-02T18:08:01Z")
I said the grand bargain was never written down. He did write down a budget, it just got rejected unanimously, which is actually a lot worse than what he was doing before 2010. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/42 "2012-08-02T18:08:30Z")
By the way, here’s another [plan.](http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/jointcommitteereport.pdf) This was the White House proposal sent to the Supercommittee to lower the deficit by $3 trillion. If click on the link you will notice words on your computer screen. Those words are the indication that this plan is indeed written down. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/43 "2012-08-02T18:09:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Because they honestly believe they didn’t lose because they were too conservative. > Actually, changing SOMETHING would be a good idea when you lose an election. You may not agree with the Republicans’ change of course, but there’s no doubt they’ve changed course. Establishment Republicans are falling left and right in primaries. Meanwhile, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are still leaders. So if Democrats lose, it’s because they aren’t conservative enough. When Republicans lose, it’s because they aren’t conservative enough. You don’t think there’s a little bias in that theory? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/44 "2012-08-02T18:11:45Z")
By the way, I’m anxiously awaiting **adaher** ’s criticism that Obama is being too flexible because he has too many plans written down; standing in contrast to his earlier criticism that Obama is inflexible because he has no plan written down. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/45 "2012-08-02T18:14:40Z")
**adaher** : Flip Flopper supreme. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/46 "2012-08-02T18:35:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If click on the link you will notice words on your computer screen. Those words are the indication that this plan is indeed written down. Meh… that’s just a bunch o’ pixels. Doesn’t count unless it’s on paper. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![onecut39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a183cd/32.png) [@onecut39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/onecut39)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/47 "2012-08-02T19:02:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Wow. Personally, I don’t think it’s a medical issue. I believe he honestly does not consider himself bound to make consistent statements, that’s something only lesser people need worry about. I think you are right and I have come to that view too. ---
**Author:** ![onecut39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a183cd/32.png) [@onecut39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/onecut39)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/48 "2012-08-02T19:07:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > And he bent over backwards to accomodate Republicans, who were using it to hold unemployment benefits hostage, and extended the tax cut for all. This holds true for the stimulus where the republicans demanded that it contain 40% tax cuts. The healthcare bill ws practically ruined by republican amendments. Then not one republican voted for the bill. The republicans set a record for filibusters in the 09, 10 congress when the democrates had the majority. In the last two years they have had majority in the house so no bill they dislike gets voted on. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/49 "2012-08-02T19:27:07Z")
So, no actual defense of Romney’s quantum waffling? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/50 "2012-08-02T19:48:02Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > So, no actual defense of Romney’s quantum waffling? Let’s use words correctly, shall we? It should be galactic waffling. Quanta are small. However I do like flip-flop. Flip-flops, for those of you not in the biz, can go from 0 (anti) to 1 (pro) in a few nanoseconds. Sounds exactly like Mitt. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/51 "2012-08-02T20:34:14Z")
I dunno, I could see quantum waffling as in his opinion is not defined until it is determined which observer it will be viewed by. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/52 "2012-08-02T21:10:38Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I dunno, I could see quantum waffling as in his opinion is not defined until it is determined which observer it will be viewed by. [Exactly](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/opinion/sunday/a-quantum-theory-of-mitt-romney.html). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/53 "2012-08-02T23:18:02Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I dunno, I could see quantum waffling as in his opinion is not defined until it is determined which observer it will be viewed by. But when it collapses it stays collapsed one way or another - which is not the way Romney works. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/54 "2012-08-03T04:11:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > By the way, here’s another [plan.](http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/jointcommitteereport.pdf) This was the White House proposal sent to the Supercommittee to lower the deficit by $3 trillion. > > If click on the link you will notice words on your computer screen. Those words are the indication that this plan is indeed written down. That is also not the grand bargain and it falls well short of sustainability, which at minimum requires the saving of $4 trillion over 10 years. The Ryan budget meets this standard. In addition, the Ryan budget has been scored by the CBO. Obama’s plan has not. Therefore, the numbers are not supportable, or otherwise known as having emerged from the President’s gluteous area. The only scored, specific plan the President has presented is his budget, and we all know how serious that is. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/55 "2012-08-03T11:35:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That is also not the grand bargain and it falls well short of sustainability, which at minimum requires the saving of $4 trillion over 10 years. Oh, wait, [Here’s](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/04/13/fact-sheet-presidents-framework-shared-prosperity-and-shared-fiscal-resp) another written plan! Plus the Simpson-Bowles commission was created by Obama… that’s not really “his” plan, but he should get a little bit of credit, so I’m calling it three and one-quarter written plans that Obama is responsible for. But I understand your point: you are talking exclusively about the negotiations last summer. In effect, you’re criticizing the White House for not having come up with four and a quarter written plans. > [@](#): > > The Ryan budget meets this standard. In addition, the Ryan budget has been scored by the CBO. Obama’s plan has not. Therefore, the numbers are not supportable… How did those goal posts end up all the way in the bleachers? Just yesterday you were outraged that the President had never written down a plan, and now you’re upset that _Congressional_ Budget Office didn’t score three written plans proposed by the White House? And by the way, it is not fair to criticize the White House for not compromising by moving toward Republican views and then hold up the Ryan budget as a solid plan. The Ryan budget makes no effort to move toward Democratic views, because the Ryan budget not only violates the bipartisan Budget Control Act spending caps (such as by INCREASING defense spending over what was agreed upon and enacted into law) but also includes cuts that every single person knows were unacceptable to Democrats. In fact, the Ryan budget cuts social programs so far that certain leaders in the Catholic Church have called it unconscionable. Long story short: you can’t in good faith criticize the White House for not compromising and then regard the Ryan budget with a shred of respect. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/56 "2012-08-03T11:43:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Oh, wait, [Here’s](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/04/13/fact-sheet-presidents-framework-shared-prosperity-and-shared-fiscal-resp) another written plan! Plus the Simpson-Bowles commission was created by Obama… that’s not really “his” plan, but he should get a little bit of credit, so I’m calling it three and one-quarter written plans that Obama is responsible for. Not scored, and no, the president does not get credit for a commission’s plan that he rejected. > [@](#): > > How did those goal posts end up all the way in the bleachers? Just yesterday you were outraged that the President had never written down a plan, and now you’re upset that _Congressional_ Budget Office didn’t score three written plans proposed by the White House? The only official plan the President has is his budget. > [@](#): > > And by the way, it is not fair to criticize the White House for not compromising by moving toward Republican views and then hold up the Ryan budget as a solid plan. The Ryan budget makes no effort to move toward Democratic views, because the Ryan budget not only violates the bipartisan Budget Control Act spending caps (such as by INCREASING defense spending over what was agreed upon and enacted into law) but also includes cuts that every single person knows were unacceptable to Democrats. In fact, the Ryan budget cuts social programs so far that certain leaders in the Catholic Church have called it unconscionable. I absolutely think that the Republicans should meet the Democrats and the President halfway. But first, the Democrats have to pass a budget, then we can begin the reconciliation process. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/57 "2012-08-03T12:02:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only official plan the President has is his budget. Do you even realize that you said this on the previous page of this thread: “Name one thing the President has proposed, WRITTEN DOWN, that is different from what he was proposing before the 2010 elections and is closer to the GOP position than before.” Now you’re using all sorts of tactics to weasel out of your challenge: now, the plans have to be CBO-scored in order to count. Do you acknowledge that you’ve moved the goalposts? > [@](#): > > I absolutely think that the Republicans should meet the Democrats and the President halfway. But first, the Democrats have to pass a budget, then we can begin the reconciliation process. Again, you are moving the goalposts. This debate used to be about what Obama had proposed. You criticized Obama for “not changing course” in making proposals to Republican leaders to bring the sides closer to agreement. And the Ryan budget did exactly the opposite of what you said Obama should do: it went back on previous budget agreements, undid them, and then went further to propose things that were even more unacceptable… and Republicans knew it. Your dishonest debating tactics are clearly obvious to everyone reading this thread. If you can’t even acknowledge that you have shifted the goalposts, used double standards to evaluate compromise, and were proven wrong on Obama never writing down any budget plan, there’s really no point in continuing this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/58 "2012-08-03T13:42:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not scored, and no, the president does not get credit for a commission’s plan that he rejected. Dude… you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/59 "2012-08-03T14:08:11Z")
[Did Obama throw Simpson-Bowles in the garbage can?](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/08/jon-huntsman/jon-huntsman-says-president-barack-obama-threw-def/) Click the link and find out! ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091/60 "2012-08-03T14:38:23Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > So, no actual defense of Romney’s quantum waffling? Romney _who_? This thread is about Obama the flipflopper. It’s right there in the SP (Second Post, which determines the subject at hand). This has got to be the derailing of the week. **adaher** , you are awesome. (Feel free to respond with the traditional “I know you are, but what am I”!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flip-flopper-supreme/630091.md?page=4)