# Flogging in place of imprisonment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754 "2011-06-16T22:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/41 "2011-06-17T17:43:40Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Seems to me torture is a barbaric form of punishment, something we should never do in this country. Easily avoided. Between each stroke, the condemned will be asked a question such as “how do you like _that_?” or “ready for another?” Just another form of enhanced interrogation, which we all know is definitely _not_ torture. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/42 "2011-06-17T17:53:53Z")
> [@Moskos](#): > > As to “inflation,” I think it is a much smaller risk with caning because caning is punishment. That is what (much of) the public wants. That is what prisons are not designed to do. And since prison f\*cks with the mind more than the body, it’s easy to say, keep the years coming because you don’t _see_ the effects of confinement. So this is really about the public seeking revenge for behaviour rather than attempting to modify the behaviour of the individual so that they do not re-offend. Granted, one can adequately argue that prison time really isn’t about rehabilitation of the offender (behaviour modification). While in prison too often criminals may become master criminals so when released any re-offense could be substantially worse. What remains is people are put in prison to keep them away from society, often for periods of time so that any who are eventually released may lack the mental and/or physical ability to reoffend anyway. Some argue that is cruel punishment as well. As already stated, if an offender has the physical capacity to endure the torture, does that really stop them from re-offending? Maybe in such a tightly control society as Singapore, probably yes. But here in America? Give me a break. Seems to me if we want to achieve true behavior modification, then it needs to start before the crime is committed. You know, identifying societal problems that often lead to such behavior - adequate housing, food, clothing, education, job prospects. You know, basic necessities of life in a society that values everyone. And yes, there will always be those who don’t make the grade as congenial human beings. Unfortunately America is more attuned to fix something that shouldn’t have been broken again, and again, again, rather that spend the money and time the first time to build it correctly the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Philliam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/philliam/32/3011_2.png) [@Philliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philliam)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/43 "2011-06-17T17:54:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Presuming that we are talking about the same kind of cane beatings we see in Singapore, yes people do die from them of heart failure. We’re talking about beating people bloody, inflicting so much pain it can stop their heart; not “paddling” them. > > And your arguments are logically contradictory; if it’s no big deal, what makes you think it will discourage anyone from anything? Either it’s brutal enough to terrorize people who’ll take years in prison in stride (in which case it is easily torture); or it’s no big deal in which case it’s pointless; you can’t have it be both at once. It’s my remembrance from the months that I worked in Singapore (about 25 years ago), that the ‘cane’ involved was a bamboo rod that had been repeatedly split on the ‘business end’ until it was more like a very flexible bamboo whip. Offenders who were sentenced to ‘strokes’ were given them in stages as the ‘cane’ literally flayed the skin and also left hundreds (thousands?) of tiny bamboo fibers that irritate like Fiberglas. I was told by a Singaporean (exaggerating for the Ferangi, possibly) that 10 strokes could lay a person up for 6 months. Not quite like your Pa giving you a switchin’ for smoking out behind the barn. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/44 "2011-06-17T18:06:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because, as it has already been repeatedly pointed out, it is an easy out for the person who can take it, and a horrible punishment for those who can’t. But Czarcasm, every one of the arguments you’ve put forth has that same issue. Two years in prison is easy for some and difficult for others. You’re setting out a difference which makes no difference. The same applies to the references to ‘torture’ here. I’ve known (in my time as a reporter) many people who have been imprisoned and have referred to it that way, especially those in state or higher security prisons. In what way is it not torture to lock someone away and deny them their freedom to move and associate with their loved ones? I’m not advocating anything here in terms of flogging vs imprisonment. But I am advocating that our current form of punishment, imprisonment, is not working as a means of rehabilitation and requires some sort of correction or new approach. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/45 "2011-06-17T18:16:22Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > But Czarcasm, every one of the arguments you’ve put forth has that same issue. Two years in prison is easy for some and difficult for others. You’re setting out a difference which makes no difference. > > The same applies to the references to ‘torture’ here. I’ve known (in my time as a reporter) many people who have been imprisoned and have referred to it that way, especially those in state or higher security prisons. In what way is it not torture to lock someone away and deny them their freedom to move and associate with their loved ones? > > I’m not advocating anything here in terms of flogging vs imprisonment. But I am advocating that our current form of punishment, imprisonment, is not working as a means of rehabilitation and requires some sort of correction or new approach. Rehabilitation, for political reasons, has very rarely ever been tried in more than name only. We don’t know if it would work on a large scale because the outcry of,“Don’t coddle the criminals!” rings out every time it is proposed. Maybe we would have so many people in prison if we didn’t send them there in the first place. This seems to work elsewhere in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Moskos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Moskos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moskos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/46 "2011-06-17T18:23:05Z")
I’m always a bit skeptical of the term “rehabilitation.” Where has it ever been successful? And were it to have any chance at success, we need to separate rehabilitation from incarceration. Perhaps this objection is too semantic: but prisoners don’t need rehabilitation; they need help! There is a difference. The former term is rooted in paternalistic and pseudo-scientific beliefs in a degenerate criminal type. The latter simply says that if people have housing and healthcare and a job and a family, they are much less likely to commit crime. Of course it’s hard (morally and politically) to provide this help for criminals when we don’t to provide these necessities to non-criminals. _"Maybe we would have so many people in prison if we didn’t send them there in the first place._" I couldn’t agree more! Also, there are some big differences between criminally sanctioned _finite_ corporal punishment and torture. I don’t condone torture. We torture people because we want something from them. Torture continues till a person breaks. Punishment is legal and ends. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/47 "2011-06-17T18:43:55Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > But Czarcasm, every one of the arguments you’ve put forth has that same issue. Two years in prison is easy for some and difficult for others. You’re setting out a difference which makes no difference Unless one prisoner has a time-speeding device and the other not, your argument is flawed. The punishment is the same; deprivation of liberty for a set period of time. As opposed to flogging, which deals out unequal punishment by its nature and the nature of the convicted. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/48 "2011-06-17T18:58:44Z")
Mr. Moskos, I read your article and it is deeply flawed right from the first paragraph. _If_(it isn’t a given) prisoners would prefer ten lashes over ten years in prison, it would be immediately brought forth that ten lashes just isn’t enough, and the amount would be raised faster than you could shake a cane. If it is even hinted that one punishment is preferred over the other, “tough on crime” politicians(and those running against them) will propose more caning so the convicted don’t get off easy. You can propose an alternate punishment, but openly proposing one you claim the prisoners would prefer means your proposal is dead in the water. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/49 "2011-06-17T18:59:23Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > How about a broadcast (complete with recording for those who can’t or won’t watch the broadcast) of you being flogged and/or waterboarded, and then write your next opinion piece on the subject? That’s a ridiculous argument. You wouldn’t expect someone claiming that incarceration is not torture to spend twenty years in prison for no good reason, would you? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/50 "2011-06-17T19:08:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because, as it has already been repeatedly pointed out, it is an easy out for the person who can take it, and a horrible punishment for those who can’t. The same can be said of imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/51 "2011-06-17T19:42:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If flogging is introduced then we’ll have the same problem with PR inflation as we now do with prison terms. Politicians will ask for more and more canings for each offense to show that they are “tough on crime”, and the now-proposed “ten strikes” will soon be a thing of the past. There is no feasible way to limit the punishment at all. Then why is it that the default sentence for stealing a car isn’t thirty years in prison? Why is the death penalty not common in every state? Your slippery slope argument isn’t particularly convincing. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/52 "2011-06-17T19:50:04Z")
Here’s a simple rebuttal for that silly idea: if flogging is on the books, then the State needs to hire official flagellators. But anyone willing to accept money to beat on someone he doesn’t even know is a brute who should be flogged himself. Catch-22. [QUOTE=Grumman] That’s a ridiculous argument. You wouldn’t expect someone claiming that incarceration is not torture to spend twenty years in prison for no good reason, would you? [/QUOTE] 20 years is a long time to suffer in order to demonstrate or invalidate one’s opinion. But a flogging’s done in 15 minutes, that’s a small sacrifice FOR SCIENCE ! ;). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/53 "2011-06-17T19:57:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then why is it that the default sentence for stealing a car isn’t thirty years in prison? Why is the death penalty not common in every state? > > Your slippery slope argument isn’t particularly convincing. > > Regards, > Shodan You left out the “Choice” factor. If it seems that criminals 1. Have a choice and, 2. Are always picking the supposedly easy choice then, 3. That choice will be toughened. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/54 "2011-06-17T21:35:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We’d have to flog the constitution first. Or are you suggesting an amendment? > > The way to solve the prison problem is to quit the war on drugs. The way to get around the prohibition against “cruel and unusual punishment” in the eighth amendment is to see that cruel punishment is usual. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/55 "2011-06-17T21:50:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If flogging is introduced then we’ll have the same problem with PR inflation as we now do with prison terms. Politicians will ask for more and more canings for each offense to show that they are “tough on crime”, and the now-proposed “ten strikes” will soon be a thing of the past. There is no feasible way to limit the punishment at all. What’s wrong with that? 😕 Although incarceration is expensive, the increase in the prison population has reduced the crime rate. Since 1980 the prison population has grown from 315,974 to 1,428,187. From 1980 to 2009 the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants has declined from 5,950.0 to 3,465.5. [http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf](http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf) > **[United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019](https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm)** > > United States crime statistics, United States , United States rape, United States murder, United States property crime, United States crime index, United States violent crime, violent crime in State, United States burglary, United States vehicle... ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/56 "2011-06-17T21:52:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m certain the SCOTUS would rule it to be unconstitutional. > Cruel? check > Unusual? check Bollocks. The people who wrote the constitution would have considered it neither cruel nor unusual. I’m all for it in the right circumstances. The idea that imprisonment is damn near the only possible punishment for a wide array of crimes committed by vastly different people strikes me as absurd. Kid does 30 days in county jail for breaking and entering, and it’s long enough to lose his job, his lease, his girlfriend … and then we act surprised when he goes back to stealing. Beat his ass, embarrass him, and then let him learn a lesson and get on with his life. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/57 "2011-06-17T21:56:10Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > What’s wrong with that? 😕 > > Although incarceration is expensive, the increase in the prison population has reduced the crime rate. Since 1980 the prison population has grown from 315,974 to 1,428,187. From 1980 to 2009 the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants has declined from 5,950.0 to 3,465.5. > > [http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf](http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf) > > [United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) You know, the trees moving outside my house make the wind blow, or maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/58 "2011-06-17T21:59:15Z")
The essential question needs to be asked: will it work? Will flogging deter criminals from committed crimes? Where’s the data? Most people, after all, assumed imprisonment would deter people from committing crimes or the death penalty would deter people from committing crimes. But the evidence is inconclusive at best. Imprisonment does serve one clear purpose: it prevents the prisoners from committing crimes against the public while they are in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/59 "2011-06-17T22:14:21Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Bollocks. The people who wrote the constitution would have considered it neither cruel nor unusual. They also allowed slavery. They were monsters, not some sort of moral guides. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754/60 "2011-06-17T22:34:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They also allowed slavery. They were monsters, not some sort of moral guides. Because it was impossible to do otherwise. Most of them were at heart abolitonists and believed slavery would die out in a few decades. And if the increase of the prison population didn’t cause the decline in crime what did? There are very few things that have otherwise changed since then with regards to the justice system and morals of the population, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flogging-in-place-of-imprisonment/585754.md?page=4)