# Florida Gov. Rick Scott cancels high speed rail **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645 "2011-02-17T00:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/21 "2011-02-17T04:24:42Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’ll rephrase. Will whoever paid for it ever fully recover the money from the fees passengers will pay? Hard to say. That’s not the point, though - the point is that _the money had already been spent._ ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/22 "2011-02-17T04:27:30Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Federal Transit says (for all US light rails): > Cost per passenger mile: $2.22 > Payment for passenger mile: $0.18 > Taxpayer subsudy: $2.04 > So, tickets pay for 8%. > > In Phoenix, fares cover 2%. To re-ask: What percentage of highway construction and maintenance costs are recovered by tolls from the users? Is every highway a toll road? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/23 "2011-02-17T04:52:49Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Meh. I’m not an opponent of high speed rail, but it seemed like a not very well thought out idea, namely in that the cities that it was supposed to service don’t have very good public transportation systems. Yes. If anything, we should be putting money into local transport systems, and old-fashioned low-speed passenger rail on existing lines between cities. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/24 "2011-02-17T05:09:15Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Really? They had millions of paying passengers before it was every built? Amazing. The project was not funded by passenger fares. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/25 "2011-02-17T05:27:37Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > The project was not funded by passenger fares. In the same way, construction of highways are not pre-paid by motorists who hope to use them. I’m always amazed why people think that mass transit should be fully funded by users, while the highway system should be completely paid for by taxes… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/26 "2011-02-17T05:52:47Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > One result of this is that the citizenry consists more and more of demographics that hate taxes,have no interest in funding public services like schools (usually, because their own children died decades ago) I know very little about this issue, but this line cracks me up. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/27 "2011-02-17T06:16:10Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > In the same way, construction of highways are not pre-paid by motorists who hope to use them. Actually, aren’t they continually paying for them with every gallon of gasoline they purchase? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/28 "2011-02-17T06:26:57Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > In the same way, construction of highways are not pre-paid by motorists who hope to use them. > > I’m always amazed why people think that mass transit should be fully funded by users, while the highway system should be completely paid for by taxes… I’ve always thought the comparison to air travel was interesting. Travel somewhere by air and you’ll be carried by a private company dependent on publicly funded infrastructure (airports and en route traffic control systems). Travel by rail in the U.S. and you’ll be on a publicly-funded carrier operating on mostly privately-owned rights-of-way. If Florida doesn’t want the money, fine. Send it to the Northeast to make the Boston-New York-Washington corridor even faster and bring in more riders. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/29 "2011-02-17T06:35:07Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Actually, aren’t they continually paying for them with every gallon of gasoline they purchase? [Only covers 60% of the cost.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_automobile_on_societies#Costs) ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/30 "2011-02-17T06:37:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [At least California’s happy.](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-high-speed-funding-20110217,0,174833.story) :mad: **BHA-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW.** Seriously, given California’s congressional delegation had never gotten together till what, the early 90’s (Cold War blues), I’m pretty sure its about a likely as a high speed rail in . . . Florida. And should they try, my guess is Florida will try to recast the money into some other project. I dunno–coastal levees for the impending rise in sea level? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/31 "2011-02-17T06:39:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Only covers 60% of the cost.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_automobile_on_societies#Costs) Hell of a lot more than the 8% ticket buyers would be covering for the Silver Streak ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/32 "2011-02-17T09:00:49Z")
Declining the fast rail line money is just the start; I think the majority of Floridians will come to wish they had never heard of Scott, much less voting him into office. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/33 "2011-02-17T11:34:29Z")
Our new (Ohio) governor killed the high speed rail program in Ohio, too. The three people who routinely travel from Cincinnati to Cleveland were really ticked. In a highly traveled corridor such as the west or northeast coast, I completely support the rail system. It makes sense. It reduces congestion on the highways. It’s cleaner. Most importantly, people will use it. But for the rest of the country, where travel patterns are completely random, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/34 "2011-02-17T11:48:50Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > The project was not funded by passenger fares. No fucking shit. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/35 "2011-02-17T12:40:06Z")
For those of us who actually LIVE, (or lived recently in my case) in the central FLorida area, losing this rail blows big time. The-I4 Corridor (tampa to Daytona beach) is one of the busiest, heavily problematic roads in the state. It is a huge artery cor commerce, and pretty much the only game in town in a lot of areas without adding significant mileage to your trip or using private toll roads. A high speed rail would have been awesome for the huge glut of day commuters to the city of Orlando and it’s local areas for work, and good for quick and easy access to the beaches by the users. That would have been a boon to the coastal communities that have been hit hard by flagging tourist numbers. Overall it would have significantly eased traffic issues, helped out tourism, improved commerce times through lightened traffic, and greatly increased our ability to improve and repair the highway which is badly in need of serious work. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/36 "2011-02-17T13:18:33Z")
I read this in the paper this morning and just sighed. I couldn’t even get worked up by it; it’s just part of the general malaise that’s affected me, caused by the cognitive dissonance of repeated strident cries of “Republicans = Good for the economy! Democrats = Tax and Spend!” God save us all from ideologues. Give me an intelligent pragmatist any day. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/37 "2011-02-17T13:26:09Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > For those of us who actually LIVE, (or lived recently in my case) in the central FLorida area, losing this rail blows big time. The-I4 Corridor (tampa to Daytona beach) is one of the busiest, heavily problematic roads in the state. It is a huge artery cor commerce, and pretty much the only game in town in a lot of areas without adding significant mileage to your trip or using private toll roads. A high speed rail would have been awesome for the huge glut of day commuters to the city of Orlando and it’s local areas for work, and good for quick and easy access to the beaches by the users. That would have been a boon to the coastal communities that have been hit hard by flagging tourist numbers. Overall it would have significantly eased traffic issues, helped out tourism, improved commerce times through lightened traffic, and greatly increased our ability to improve and repair the highway which is badly in need of serious work. Immaterial. If Obama’s for it, they’re against it. It’s that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/38 "2011-02-17T13:57:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Only covers 60% of the cost.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_automobile_on_societies#Costs) Well, if you’re speaking in terms of federal outlays, that’s not true at all: > [@](#): > > Rail buffs argue that subsidies for passenger service simply offset the huge government support of highways and airways. The subsidies “level the playing field.” Wrong. In 2004, the Transportation Department evaluated federal transportation subsidies from 1990 to 2002. It found passenger rail service had the highest subsidy ($186.35 per thousand passenger-miles) followed by mass transit ($118.26 per thousand miles). By contrast, drivers received no net subsidy; their fuel taxes more than covered federal spending. Subsidies for airline passengers were about $5 per thousand miles traveled. (All figures are in inflation-adjusted year 2000 dollars.) The problem with high speed rail is it’s a forever-drain on S&L governments, taking money away from stuff they need to spend it on. They will lose money every year, while making a negligible impact on traffic. Why the administration would shackle states like this, I don’t know, maybe as a sop to his union buddies who got him elected. > [@](#): > > High-speed rail would transform Amtrak’s small drain into a much larger drain. Once built, high-speed-rail systems would face a dilemma. To recoup initial capital costs - construction and train purchases - ticket prices would have to be set so high that few people would choose rail. But lower prices, even with favorable passenger loads, might not cover costs. Government would be stuck with huge subsidies. Even without recovering capital costs, high-speed-rail systems would probably run in the red. Most mass-transit systems, despite high ridership, routinely have deficits. As the [WaPo](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/13/AR2011021302203.html) put it on Monday, the case against high speed rail is overwhelming. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/39 "2011-02-17T14:01:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > All that money has already been appropriated, so it’s not as though the money is going to be saved. It’s already been appropriated for the purpose of building high speed rail networks, so it will probably end up going to California. Or South Dakota. Who knows? > > He’s screwing over residents of his own state to poke Obama in the eye. What a douche. Some Florida residents will see the move as saving them many, many more billions in operating subsidies. Given the experience of Amtrak, “high speed rail” will be [a money pit](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/13/AR2011021302203.html). \*"Rail buffs argue that subsidies for passenger service simply offset the huge government support of highways and airways. The subsidies “level the playing field.” Wrong. In 2004, the Transportation Department evaluated federal transportation subsidies from 1990 to 2002. It found passenger rail service had the highest subsidy ($186.35 per thousand passenger-miles) followed by mass transit ($118.26 per thousand miles). By contrast, drivers received no net subsidy; their fuel taxes more than covered federal spending. Subsidies for airline passengers were about $5 per thousand miles traveled. (All figures are in inflation-adjusted year 2000 dollars.) High-speed rail would transform Amtrak’s small drain into a much larger drain. Once built, high-speed-rail systems would face a dilemma. To recoup initial capital costs - construction and train purchases - ticket prices would have to be set so high that few people would choose rail. But lower prices, even with favorable passenger loads, might not cover costs. Government would be stuck with huge subsidies."\* It’s very likely that projections for construction and operating costs are wildly optimistic (given our past history with Amtrak and government projects of all types). Is it worth it in much of the country (where state budgets are already heavily strained) to have [del]high[/del] modestly speeded-up passenger rail? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645/40 "2011-02-17T14:20:27Z")
Rail _networks_? Probably not. The Florida high-speed link is a single artery connecting the two cities in Florida between which people travel most often. It’s projected that 70% of the passengers would be tourists who fly into Orlando and will be mostly be staying in Tampa, or vice versa. Disney has already offered to make up any shortfall in initial capital outlays between the federal funds the actual cost of construction, incidentally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-gov-rick-scott-cancels-high-speed-rail/571645.md?page=3)