# Florida man claims self defense after chasing a man over a fence and shooting him. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404 "2014-01-21T22:17:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/1 "2014-01-21T22:17:31Z")
I can’t find four paragraphs in the article that tell the story sufficiently, but Claudius Smith noticed the man, Ricardo Sanes, walking around his yard and began chasing the unknown man after he had jumped a fence into a neighboring apartment complex, then… > **[Another 'stand your ground' case? Florida shooting suspect claims he was...](https://www.staugustine.com/story/news/state/2014/01/21/another-stand-your-ground-case-florida-shooting-suspect-claims-he-was/16129860007/)** > > ORLANDO - The gunman accused of chasing and killing a 21-year-old man at an Orlando apartment complex Thursday told police he was pursuing a suspected burglar and acted in self-defense after he was a… > [@](#): > > According to police, Smith admitted jumping the fence into the apartment complex, armed with a .45-caliber handgun, where he said he saw Sanes “looking into windows of apartments as he walked past them.” > > Smith admitted pulling his gun and confronting Sanes, and when Sanes tried to walk away, Smith said he grabbed Sanes’ hooded sweatshirt and tried to force Sanes back to his house “so the police could be called.” > > Smith told police Sanes “punched him in the mouth and grabbed for his gun.” > > “(Smith’s) immediate response was to pull the trigger and fire shots at (Sanes),” a report states. Smith said he feared Sanes was armed “because his pants were falling down” and his hands were in his hoodie pockets. So once again, we have a man causing a confrontation then shooting the other man in “self defense” when the other man fights back. He’s being charge with second degree murder. This is uncomfortably similar to the Trayvon Martin case. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/2 "2014-01-21T22:27:11Z")
Well, as described, the dead man appeared to be trespassing. That’s a greater justification for a call to the police than Zimmerman had, as I understand that case. The references to a hoodie and pants-falling-down… dog-whistly, wot? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/3 "2014-01-21T22:33:21Z")
A greater justification to call the police, sure, but following and confronting the man with a gun? That’s just asking for trouble. I should point out that both men are black, so there isn’t the same racial component as there was with Zimmerman / Martin. > **[Police ID man found shot to death in Metrowest, suspect arrested](https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2014/1/17/man_found_shot_id)** > > Orlando Police have identified the man who was found shot to death late Thursday morning in Metrowest and arrested a suspect. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/4 "2014-01-21T22:35:37Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I can’t find four paragraphs in the article that tell the story sufficiently, but Claudius Smith noticed the man, Ricardo Sanes, walking around his yard and began chasing the unknown man after he had jumped a fence into a neighboring apartment complex, then… > [Another 'stand your ground' case? Florida shooting suspect claims he was attacked](http://staugustine.com/news/florida-news/2014-01-21/another-stand-your-ground-case-florida-shooting-suspect-claims-he-was#.Ut7IMmQo7C9) > > So once again, we have a man causing a confrontation then shooting the other man in “self defense” when the other man fights back. He’s being charge with second degree murder. This is uncomfortably similar to the Trayvon Martin case. Well, according to your article: > [@](#): > > A preliminary examination of Sanes’ body revealed gunshots to his upper back and the back of his neck. Authorities found a .40-caliber handgun “concealed in the crotch area of (Sanes’) pants,” an affidavit states. So, this sounds fishy all around. This guy was armed (so, not exactly like the Zimmerman case), but the wounds reported here don’t seem consistent with a struggle/fight…again, unlike the Zimmerman case. Upper back and back of the neck almost seem like the guy was fleeing or something along those lines, and the fact that he was armed seems to indicate that something was going on here. Basically, while I’m sure it’s a knee jerk reaction, I’d wait until more facts come out before jumping to conclusions and beating your chest about stand your ground. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/5 "2014-01-21T22:43:37Z")
I said nothing about stand your ground. Stand your ground was not in play in the Trayvon Martin case (although it could be argued that Martin stood his ground). And, according to that same article, Smith has stated that he didn’t know that Sanes had a gun until the police told him. Smith created a dangerous confrontation purely because of unproven suspicions of burglary. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/6 "2014-01-21T22:46:14Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I said nothing about stand your ground. Stand your ground was not in play in the Trayvon Martin case (although it could be argued that Martin stood his ground). > > And, according to that same article, Smith has stated that he didn’t know that Sanes had a gun until the police told him. > > Smith created a dangerous confrontation purely because of unproven suspicions of burglary. But, you know, the reality is that the guy DID have a gun. Again, I wouldn’t jump to any conclusions here until some additional data comes out. As to stand your ground, it’s right there in the title of the article you used as the basis of the OP, and is pretty obviously what we are actually talking about here, since this doesn’t seem to have anything really related to Trayvon Martin/Zimmerman except that it’s another shooting in Florida, a state where violence is practically unknown… …er, no, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/7 "2014-01-21T22:48:28Z")
It sounds like Smith was making a citizens arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/8 "2014-01-21T22:56:50Z")
Further distinguishing this case from the Zimmerman/Martin matter, Smith has been immediately charged with a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/9 "2014-01-21T22:58:24Z")
Not going to opine on the merits of the self-defense claim at this time, but this is a killing that did not have to happen. Fucking stay inside and call 911. That’s why we have police officers. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/10 "2014-01-21T23:14:08Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Not going to opine on the merits of the self-defense claim at this time, but this is a killing that did not have to happen. Fucking stay inside and call 911. That’s why we have police officers. Yeah, it’s a killing that didn’t need to happen (seemingly, if we take the article at face value and make some assumptions about what actually happened). Fucking don’t go into other peoples yards and peer into other peoples windows. It’s perhaps not the best idea. And, I agree, if someone does that, don’t confront them yourself but call the police. There seems to be a lot of stupidity out there, however, so I’m sure we shall see this same thing repeated over and over again in the future, as it has been in the past. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/11 "2014-01-21T23:52:54Z")
Yes, the article mentioned stand your ground, but I was accused of beating my chest over syg when I never mentioned it. I didn’t write the article. As far as parallels to the Martin case, both that and this were instances of an individual playing vigilante, creating a dangerous situation, and then shooting in self defense. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/12 "2014-01-22T00:05:25Z")
[QUOTE=davidm] Yes, the article mentioned stand your ground, but I was accused of beating my chest over syg when I never mentioned it. I didn’t write the article. [/QUOTE] You mentioned it by implication, since you mentioned Trayvon Martin (and the supposed similarities which I’m failing to see) AND linked to an article where it’s right there in the title. But ok, fine…you never thought of stand your ground and it has nothing to do with this OP. I won’t mention it again. What’s the similarities between this and the Trayvon Martin case? > [@](#): > > As far as parallels to the Martin case, both that and this were instances of an individual playing vigilante, creating a dangerous situation, and then shooting in self defense. I’d say the guy slinking about the apartment complex with the .40 cal hand gun might have had something to do with creating the dangerous situation as well, but again we just don’t know enough about this. That’s why sometimes it’s best to let some time go by and some additional data come to light before rushing off to beat a dead horse. Could be that this was a drug deal gone wrong, or maybe a jealous ex-boyfriend or something. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/13 "2014-01-22T00:13:40Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It sounds like Smith was making a citizens arrest. What was he arresting the decedent _for_? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/14 "2014-01-22T00:26:26Z")
Who knows. Certainly not me. Maybe attempted burglary? Trespass, peeping tom-ism (is that a crime?) The fact that Smith grabbed the guy by the shirt and was trying to hold him for police (so he claims) is what leads me to think he was arresting him. Whether or not a citizens arrest was justified is unknown. I’d say it’s generally a bad idea to attempt to confront a person you believe is in the act of committing a crime. Of course, depending on the crime I would hope that bystanders would intervene. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/15 "2014-01-22T00:35:24Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > A greater justification to call the police, sure, but following and confronting the man with a gun? That’s just asking for trouble. Add me to wanting more information before coming to any conclusions, but you know what else is just asking for trouble? Punching a man with a gun in the mouth and trying to grab his gun. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/16 "2014-01-22T03:36:48Z")
Not a lot of information to go on (for instance, Mr. Smith claims he was punched in the face, but there’s no indication of whether he showed any evidence of this), but where there isn’t doesn’t look good for Mr. Smith: - The victim was shot in the back - Mr. Smith admits to physically restraining the victim - After the shooting, Mr. Smith fled the scene and discarded his handgun ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/17 "2014-01-22T03:41:58Z")
Also, not to start a tangent, necessarily, and though it seems more likely than not that Mr. Smith will plea bargain or be convicted, this is the sort of case that made me change my mind on the duty to retreat. If we can stop these kind of confrontations from occurring in the first place, then we don’t have to sort out who was justified when they shot and who wasn’t. Just stay in your house, and don’t chase prowlers across apartment complexes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/18 "2014-01-22T04:29:47Z")
This is just like the MZ/TM case. In both instances, a person was killed. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/19 "2014-01-22T09:20:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, it’s a killing that didn’t need to happen (seemingly, if we take the article at face value and make some assumptions about what actually happened). **Fucking don’t go into other peoples yards and peer into other peoples windows. It’s perhaps not the best idea.** The only evidence we have that the victim was ‘peering into other people’s windows’ is from the guy that _shot him in the back_. Also this: > [@](#): > > According to statements by Smith’s girlfriend, Angela Kemraj, to police, the incident started when she saw a man in the yard on surveillance cameras and reported it to Smith. She said they saw the individual in dark clothes and a hoodie leaving their yard without anything in his hands, and climbing over the fence to a \*\*neighboring apartment complex. Smith then left the apartment and climbed over the fence. Two minutes later, Kemraj said she heard gunshots. Soon after, Smith came back to the apartment and said Sanes tried to rob him, without mentioning the shooting. \*\*Smith was detained at a home about four miles away after a manhunt. During initial police questioning, **Smith denied knowledge about the shooting, and only later confessed** , claiming he shot in self-defense. Righteous kill, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404/20 "2014-01-22T14:24:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Also, not to start a tangent, necessarily, and though it seems more likely than not that Mr. Smith will plea bargain or be convicted, this is the sort of case that made me change my mind on the duty to retreat. If we can stop these kind of confrontations from occurring in the first place, then we don’t have to sort out who was justified when they shot and who wasn’t. Just stay in your house, and don’t chase prowlers across apartment complexes. I’m not sure that the “duty to retreat” plays a factor in this case, or these types of cases more generally. My guess is that the question is going to be the reasonableness of drawing his weapon in the first place (and whether that waived the right to self-defense). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-man-claims-self-defense-after-chasing-a-man-over-a-fence-and-shooting-him/679404.md?page=2)