# Florida recount **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389 "2018-11-12T03:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/181 "2018-11-20T01:16:44Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I’m all for spending money to make sure elections run right. I’m not sure why you single out only Democrats for not advocating for this. I’m sure if you asked any Democrat they’d support it, I’m just surprised it’s not a part of the agenda to make elections better. it seems like an obvious thing. Maybe it just would cost too much? > [@](#): > > I want more than minimum standards. Maximum standards, as it were. Why just minimum standards? And as I suggested, yes, I do want someone/some group to scientifically research and determine a **fair, accurate, well-tested system of voting to be used _everywhere_**. If it meets those criteria in Alaska, it meets them in Florida. Move to a new state? Terrific. The one thing to be sure of is that you don’t have to learn a new way of voting. As for what you or anyone else wants, that goes back to my bolded requirements I just mentioned. But none of it is hard! All the methods are easy and there is no method that someone won’t make a mistake with. there’s nothing to learn. You get your punch card, you punch. You get bubbles, you fill out bubbles. You check a box, you check a box. Easy stuff. If you’re trying to find something unscrewupable, you won’t find it in a nation of 150 million voters. A certain percentage will make a mistake on their ballots. Which again, is why extremely close elections should be called ties and resolved through other means, rather than sticking with this fantasy that we can calculate the will of the people down to a single vote. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/182 "2018-11-20T01:21:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or, what if you just fucking count all the votes? :dubious: And, since you bring up Georgia, quit trying to suppress voting? Is it really so fucking hard to understand what a commitment to democracy means? > > Because he knows his Republicans sure as shit aren’t, and we all know why, too. Who was trying to suppress the Georgia vote? Was there any part of Georgia’s laws that was illegal? Or are you simply against all methods to prevent fraud? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/183 "2018-11-20T01:48:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which again, is why extremely close elections should be called ties and resolved through other means, rather than sticking with this fantasy that we can calculate the will of the people down to a single vote. Oh great. So we call all votes in the say 49% to 51% range ties. Now we have two targets that need recounts. Did the vote come in at 48.9% it’s a loss or 49.1% it’s a do over. Or did it come in at 50.9%, it’s a do over or at 51.1%, it’s a win. You’ve doubled the problem. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/184 "2018-11-20T01:54:36Z")
Not at all. If the first count is 51%, then we know there’s pretty much zero chance that the candidate getting 51% didn’t win at least a majority. And I’m not even talking about a margin of error that large. I’m talking more in the .1% range, like if it’s 49.8 to 49.7%. Of course, the best way to handle that is a runoff and some states do that, and that usually does settle the issue. But tiebreaker rules can’t hurt either. Some offices can have the term split. Or you could award the office to the first count winner but they have to face the voters again in two years(fine for everything but House races). Or you could do something as simple as “challenging party wins” since incumbent parties have a lot of unfair advantages. Or even a coin flip. The virtue of tiebreaker rules is that voters can be mad because they feel they got unlucky, but not mad because they got screwed. Suspicion that there’s cheating going on is much worse for democracy than coin flips or splitting up terms where that is feasible. Senators serve six years. Nothing wrong with Nelson serving the next three and Scott getting the three after that. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/185 "2018-11-20T02:34:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And I’m not even talking about a margin of error that large. I’m talking more in the .1% range, like if it’s 49.8 to 49.7%. The exact numbers don’t matter. Whatever you set the rule at, if you’re near the rule you have to determine whether the rule applies or just misses applying. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/186 "2018-11-20T12:32:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Who was trying to suppress the Georgia vote? That confirms it. You really _haven’t_ been paying attention. But let’s proceed: If you’re truly interested in objectively finding out who is the people’s choice in an election, in good faith, how would you do it? Would you start by scorning anyone else’s interest in so doing, even denying that it’s even possible? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/187 "2018-11-20T12:45:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Who was trying to suppress the Georgia vote? Brian Kemp, the newly elected Governor of my state, was previously the Georgia Secretary of State. (He stepped down as Secretary of State on [November 8](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/us/georgia-brian-kemp-resign-stacey-abrams.html), two days after the gubernatorial election.) Among other things, the Secretary of State is in charge of supervising elections (like, for example, the election of a new Governor). ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/188 "2018-11-20T18:27:27Z")
When it comes to “there should be a law” you’d think that’d be a good place to start. “The person running the election may not also be running _in_ the election.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/189 "2018-11-20T22:22:35Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > The exact numbers don’t matter. Whatever you set the rule at, if you’re near the rule you have to determine whether the rule applies or just misses applying. The rule is easy: if the first count is within .1%, then it’s declared a tie. Currently, Florida has two rules: a machine recount at .5%, a hand recount at .25%. You do not do a recount to determine if you need to do a recount. The first count is the sole decider of whether a recount takes place. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/190 "2018-11-20T22:23:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That confirms it. You really _haven’t_ been paying attention. > > But let’s proceed: If you’re truly interested in objectively finding out who is the people’s choice in an election, in good faith, how would you do it? Would you start by scorning anyone else’s interest in so doing, even denying that it’s even possible? In order to determine voter intent, you cannot allow nonvoters into the mix. Every illegal voter disenfranchises a legal voter. And I have been paying attention. Brian Kemp disenfranchised no one, unless you believe the law itself is disenfranchising. In which case your issue is with Georgia law, not Brian Kemp. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/191 "2018-11-20T22:25:57Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > When it comes to “there should be a law” you’d think that’d be a good place to start. “The person running the election may not also be running _in_ the election.” That’s a good law. But not as necessary as you’d think, since Kemp doesn’t run enough of the process to decide it in his own favor unless he actually does illegal things. Lack of voting machines wasn’t on him. The voter purges were conducted legally and no one has alleged they were done illegally, only that “we no likey voter purges!” Rejecting ballots over mismatched signatures is also in compliance with the law, and he’d be in violation of the law if he didn’t reject them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/192 "2018-11-21T06:38:20Z")
By any chance, do you know the precise legal standard for variation in the signature? Are they scanned by state of the art computer graphology? So, say, is ninety percent similar, but not necessarily identical, for legal purposes? Shirley the definitions by law are impartial and objective? Leaving it to the _subjective_ interpretation of an election official simply won’t do! Especially since Mr Kemp has placed himself in legal jeopardy if he fails to meet the exacting legal standards for signature resemblance! Why, when you look at it _that_ way, his story is a Profile in Courage! ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/193 "2018-11-21T06:49:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > In order to determine voter intent, you cannot allow nonvoters into the mix. Every illegal voter disenfranchises a legal voter. You’re the second person to allege a non-nominal amount of illegal votes, with at least a slight insinuation that those votes are going for Democrats. Do you have any proof for this, or is it more of your “recounts are un-democratic”? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/194 "2018-11-21T08:22:57Z")
Illegal votes are those in which either ineligible people registered and voted, or where someone may have voted absentee for someone else. Unlike in person voter fraud, absentee ballot fraud is a thing: > **[Why Republicans Aren’t Actually Interested in Stopping Voter Fraud](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/09/voter-fraud-exists-through-absentee-ballots-but-republicans-wont-stop-it.html)** > > The Washington Post and News21 published a thorough analysis on Thursday of alleged voter fraud cases over the past four years in Arizona, Ohio,... > **[You can’t keep up with South Florida voter fraud without a scorecard](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article111207622.html)** > > If the news that two Miami women were arrested on allegations of voting fraud Thursday seemed a little bit déjà vu-ish, that’s because you really had seen it before. South Florida has been humming a ballad of ballot banditry for many years. Here’s a... ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/195 "2018-11-21T08:54:31Z")
I’m seeing a whole lotta Republicans on that list, including everything since 1994…maybe we should worry more about those guys? And Republicans are the ones complaining about voter fraud and needing IDs and all that jazz, yet they haven’t done anything to stop absentee ballot fraud? If someone is complaining about a non-issue, happily ignoring an actual issue, while GETTING CAUGHT regularly breaking the law to take advantage of that issue, maybe they’re being less than faithful regarding the problem and proposed solution. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/196 "2018-11-21T09:43:01Z")
Perhaps. But for whatever reason, Democrats decided to focus on absentee ballots being rejected in Georgia and Florida, using methods that have been in use for a very long time, signature matching. And they’ve been on about voter purges for some time, even though maintenance of voter lists is required by federal law. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/197 "2018-11-21T10:33:14Z")
Couldn’t possibly be because Republicans are using those very tactics to gain an advantage, could it? Not like they haven’t been repeatedly caught actively cheating or anything… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/198 "2018-11-21T12:27:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > In order to determine voter intent, you cannot allow nonvoters into the mix. Every illegal voter disenfranchises a legal voter. > > And I have been paying attention. Brian Kemp disenfranchised no one, unless you believe the law itself is disenfranchising. In which case your issue is with Georgia law, not Brian Kemp. You know, Bricker was a lot better at posing this argument than you are, and he went down in flames with it. If you’ve been paying attention, then you know that there are a lot of ways voter suppression can occur that are completely legal, and Kemp engaged in most of them. But keep pretending that “legality” is the issue here rather than the deliberate abuse of legally-obtained power to heavily skew election results in an election run by someone who had a strongly-vested personal interest in the outcome. And then remember that Jim Crow laws were perfectly legal too, at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/199 "2018-11-21T14:49:10Z")
How is a law that says that people who move out of state must be taken off the rolls relevant to people who have not moved out of the state? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/200 "2018-11-21T16:51:19Z")
As almost everyone knows, America is basically a conservative country, center-right. Voter fraud is one of the very few tools we have to create our socialist America! Even as we speak, Trump is opening up vast western lands to mining, drilling, pipelines, and other forms of prudent and responsible devastation, land we need for future re-education camps. OF course we would prefer a more acceptable approach by traditional means, like taking all the guns. But Trump outsmarted us (again!), and those patriots at the NRA are stubborn. And the expense, the logistics! Renting thousands of buses, recruiting Fraudulent Americans to fill them. We are damned lucky we have Soros’ billions of dollars in Bitcoin sales, or we would be totally boned! Just try it, try to get out five million fake votes, and then have Trump win anyway! Didn’t have Bernie. we’d have no hope at all! Sure, its unfair cheating to suppress brown voters, but the Dems are _already_ cheating, and the real Americans have no choice! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=11)