# Florida recount **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389 "2018-11-12T03:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ohiomstr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/82dd89/32.png) [@ohiomstr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ohiomstr2)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/21 "2018-11-12T15:36:14Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Jesus H. Christ, this 2018 why can’t they have a system that works? There’s seriously something wrong in Florida politics. This is really over the line. The Fed needs to send people down there to monitor elections. Or an international monitoring team, headed by President Carter. I often wonder what the US government would say if we were looking at a similar situation in a s\*\*\*\*\*\*\* country… ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/22 "2018-11-12T21:25:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > First, all the other counties can meet the deadline. And most years, Palm Beach handles vote counting just fine. For some reason they had some foulups this year, as did Broward. > > Second, recounts are BS. Running ballots through the machine once gives one result, running them through a second time gives a different result. There is no evidence that result #2 is more accurate than result #1. It’s all kabuki to make voters think that their one vote can make a difference, when the reality is that elections have a margin of error. Invalid ballots get included in totals, valid ballots get lost, mistakes occur during counting. When an election is close enough, there is literally no way to determine the intent of the voters. It’s a tie, and recounts are just a sophisticated way to do a coin flip. > > That being said, Rick Scott is ahead by 12,000 votes, and no recount has ever flipped that many votes, or even come close. It’s over. Soooo…you think this “margin of error” is consistent across counties and through time? You think there are NEVER any errors, deliberate or otherwise by biased election officials in the original ballot counts? And you think as long as the results are within the “margin of error,” we should shrug off the actual results and any possible malfeasance and declare a winner? And you’re arguing that because something has never happened in the past, it can’t happen in the present? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/23 "2018-11-12T22:07:07Z")
I’m arguing that the purpose of an election is to determine the will of the voters. If an election is this close, that cannot be done. Things happen, like 20,000 voters failing to find the Senate race on their ballots, or weather keeping people from the polls, or lack of machines. None of this is enough to flip a race that’s decisive, but in close races it makes the result suspect. Let’s end these suspect results and just declare a tie, and then have tiebreaker rules, which could mean runoffs, incumbent party always loses, each candidate serves half the term, or even a coin flip. But stop doing these damn recounts because they always end in hard feelings and mistrust. Either the first result is the result, or declare ties in close races. There is zero evidence that the recount will produce a more accurate result than the first count did. It certainly can’t make up for the other errors in the system, such as 20K voters not voting in the Senate race in Broward. It is safe to say, at least in the Senate race, that it is impossible to determine the will of the people. CAn we all agree on that? And if so, what’s the best way to handle that problem? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/24 "2018-11-12T22:15:12Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Surprise, it takes longer for the most populated counties to gather and count (and even longer to recount) all their votes than it does for the low population counties to do so. Shouldn’t there be a corresponding increase in workers and machines? That would be like saying we only have 10 teachers per school whether the school has 100 kids or 2,500 kids. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/25 "2018-11-12T23:47:02Z")
Broward hasn’t even started their recount, BTW. At least Palm Beach has given us information. Broward doesn’t say anything at all without a court order. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/26 "2018-11-12T23:53:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Shouldn’t there be a corresponding increase in workers and machines? That would be like saying we only have 10 teachers per school whether the school has 100 kids or 2,500 kids. Who’s in charge of this stuff again? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/27 "2018-11-13T00:11:06Z")
Is it just me or are Republicans almost always in the lead in recount elections? When’s the last time the roles were flipped and a Democrat led by 0.1% or something? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/28 "2018-11-13T00:21:15Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Who’s in charge of this stuff again? AFAIK, it is the counties. I really don’t know. This wasn’t a gotcha question. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/29 "2018-11-13T00:29:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That being said, Rick Scott is ahead by 12,000 votes, and no recount has ever flipped that many votes, or even come close. It’s over. Then why not just count all the damn votes already? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/30 "2018-11-13T00:45:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is zero evidence that the recount will produce a more accurate result than the first count did. And zero that it won’t. That’s why you do it. > [@](#): > > It is safe to say, at least in the Senate race, that it is impossible to determine the will of the people. CAn we all agree on that? Of course not. That’s what counting \*all \*the ballots is for. Maybe you’ve been asleep, but this isn’t 2000 and your partisan arguments against the most basic process of democracy were already dissected then when made by others. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/31 "2018-11-13T00:52:23Z")
Florida did away with the chads, and after some fits and starts with touchscreens and others eventually settled on scan ballots. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Shouldn’t there be a corresponding increase in workers and machines? That would be like saying we only have 10 teachers per school whether the school has 100 kids or 2,500 kids. Well, yeah – but for the benefit of those unfamiliar: what you have is on election night, there’s one or more scanners at each polling place (depending on population) and at the end of the day you write down the readout of the scanner, then the largely _volunteer_ poll workers make a crosscheck of how many ballots are in the basket vs. how many the scanner counted and make a note of it on the report then zap it to the Elections Board. Any discrepancies are looked at in the general canvass. When it comes down to _recount_ now the process is more closely monitored so it gets done in one central location, with one fixed number of machines and a smaller number of people so you can control it all more tightly. Now, if a particular county does not have this part of the operation be large enough to do a general recount in the time required, someone lacked foresight. But the question becomes, who’s responsible for PB or Broward being sufficiently equipped and staffed in case of recount? The counties themselves, or the State? That is one expensive contingency, and again, most poll workers were volunteers it’s not like you can summon them all again. As to the ballot-design issue, that seems to be a major problem that keeps biting Florida in the fundament, but I’ve seen other states’ ballots that are equally unimpressive. The one complaint about one of the races being tucked under a Wall Of Text in the lower left could be fixed by a hard and fast rule that NOTHING goes in the instructions column other than instructions (hell, make it a different font/shaded background), and all actual votes are in columns B thru D with separating “gutters” so that it is obvious where are the elections. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/32 "2018-11-13T01:47:17Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > When it comes down to _recount_ now the process is more closely monitored so it gets done in one central location, with one fixed number of machines and a smaller number of people so you can control it all more tightly. Why would a fixed number of machines help control the recount more tightly? Double the number of machines currently doing the recount in Palm Beach County, and you still only have sixteen machines, still few enough to maintain control of the recount, especially with the number of attorneys and party leaders keeping a keen eye on the proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/33 "2018-11-13T03:06:09Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Why would a fixed number of machines help control the recount more tightly? Double the number of machines currently doing the recount in Palm Beach County, and you still only have sixteen machines, still few enough to maintain control of the recount, especially with the number of attorneys and party leaders keeping a keen eye on the proceedings. Tell it to the elections commissioners who fixed it at 8, and ask whose call was it – county or state. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/34 "2018-11-13T05:06:06Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Tell it to the elections commissioners who fixed it at 8, and ask whose call was it – county or state. It’s the county. [This NYT article](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/10/us/florida-senate-governor-votes-recount.html) says the Miami-Dade elections office rented 4 additional machines, bringing its total to 10. This also means the number of machines isn’t fixed but fluid. Another puzzler is that > [@](#): > > 41,000 Floridians requested mail-in ballots from overseas, so elections supervisors were simply inundated with ballots to count after Election Day. Mail-in ballots must be requested no later than 6 days before the election, so officials certainly had time to prepare. And ballots from overseas are still coming in. The deadline for arrival is this Friday. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/35 "2018-11-13T05:25:09Z")
Huh. I just had a look at my ballot info (I live overseas, and vote out of Marion County, FL), and it tells me my ballot was tabulated. They received it on October 5 - wonder when they counted it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/36 "2018-11-13T13:08:45Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > My point was that they were able to run all of these ballots through the machine on election night in a matter of hours. Why can they not just do the same process again in the next four days? Can you confirm for us that they **were** able to do the initial machine count in a matter of hours? > [@voltaire](#): > > Because for both undervotes and overvotes, they have to check each ballot _by hand_ to determine the problem that caused the aberration. No, this is the _machine recount_. If, after the machine recount is completed, the margin in a race is \< 0.25%, _then_ there’s a hand recount. > [@nelliebly](#): > > How hard would it be, exactly, to roll in another 10 or 12 machines from another county? Each county’s ballot is different. You’d have to reprogram the additional machines, and test to make sure the reprogramming was done correctly. By the time they finished that, they’d be past the deadline anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/37 "2018-11-13T13:15:37Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > There’ll be a law suit. You can time that one with a stop watch. Might even end up back and the Supreme Court. The notion that it’s more important to finish the recount by a particular date, than it is to complete the recount and do it correctly, is of course absurd. It also flies in the face of the right of the voters to have their votes counted, and counted correctly. I suspect that the Dem legal team will be making that latter point in court. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/38 "2018-11-13T16:28:35Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > It’s deja vu all over again. Complete with[Butterfly ballot 2.0](https://www.fastcompany.com/90265447/terrible-ballot-design-may-have-decided-floridas-senate-race) ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/39 "2018-11-13T18:26:53Z")
Recounts are ridiculous. If you take the same pile of ballots and count them twice, you should get exactly the same numbers. If you don’t something is broken somewhere in the system. It’s so bizarre to me that a recount can cause triple-digit change in vote totals, and everyone just shrugs off the fact that apparently hundreds of people disenfranchised on the first go. Or the second go. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/40 "2018-11-13T18:35:22Z")
It’s not really disenfranchisement if they have a mechanism to force a recount if there’s any chance that it’s actually close. It’s just a lower precision measure, followed by increased precision measures that take longer if the situation is close. That said, I do agree that they should be able to do a better job than this with the first count. Especially in a place that has repeatedly had problems. Give them them the latest and greatest tech. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=3)