# Florida recount **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389 "2018-11-12T03:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/41 "2018-11-13T18:42:51Z")
Arkansas has electronic voting (and mechanical before that). But we also do have ballots, especially for absentee. The ballot does not seem difficult to read at all. The only problem I have is that I think we need a plain language statute for the ballot issues. Here is[Missouri’s absentee ballots](https://i2.wp.com/lerner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/AbsenteeBallot.png?resize=600%2C526), which look similar, except that ours doesn’t have the gray background to emphasize the titles: they’re just set off with bold and lines, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/42 "2018-11-13T18:54:24Z")
One more thing: it just occurred to me that it sounds like I’m saying recount deadline isn’t disenfranchisement. That very much is. And, no, to **adaher**. It is not impossible to determine the will of the people–at least the people who voted. That’s ridiculous. There are still countries that count votes by hand. There’s plenty of time before they take office. Having multiple samplings increases accuracy, BTW. So, while you can’t necessarily say that the first or second count is more accurate, you can figure out the bounds, and if they both agree, you get a more precise measurement than either alone. That said, if the recount is handled differently than the original count, then it could add precision to the process. Assuming they don’t include an arbitrary deadline. The only time I would say we can’t tell is if we are at January 2 and still don’t have everything counted. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/43 "2018-11-13T19:22:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s not really disenfranchisement if they have a mechanism to force a recount if there’s any chance that it’s actually close. Of course it is. If you go to the polls and vote a specific candidate or proposal and that vote wasn’t properly recorded, then you didn’t actually vote. Obviously it’d be worse if it swung an election one way or another but it’s still unambiguously disenfranchisement. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/44 "2018-11-13T19:59:21Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > Of course it is. If you go to the polls and vote a specific candidate or proposal and that vote wasn’t properly recorded, then you didn’t actually vote. Obviously it’d be worse if it swung an election one way or another but it’s still unambiguously disenfranchisement. It is amazing that millions of Floridians were able to navigate the complexities of properly marking their ballots. I think that a rejection of a vote is self-selecting. If you are too stupid to follow the instructions on how to vote so that the machine did not count it, then that was a vote that did not need to be counted. It further amazes me how Democrats want to portray Republican voters as backwoods idiot rednecks yet they support counting moron votes because they know that is where they get the most votes. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/45 "2018-11-13T20:02:51Z")
I guess we can forget about Florida being a battleground state at this point. Battleground states shouldn’t have been even close this election. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/46 "2018-11-13T20:17:43Z")
If the ballots are designed such that idiots _on both sides_ can’t figure it out, well, I’d still argue that that’s less than ideal, but at least it’s fair. But if the ballots are designed so that it’s easier to figure out how to vote for one side than for the other, so that one side’s idiots get to vote and the other side’s idiots don’t, well, that’s a problem. And that was the case both with the butterfly ballots, and with these ballots. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/47 "2018-11-13T20:19:05Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Can you confirm for us that they **were** able to do the initial machine count in a matter of hours? > No, this is the _machine recount_. If, after the machine recount is completed, the margin in a race is \< 0.25%, _then_ there’s a hand recount. > Each county’s ballot is different. You’d have to reprogram the additional machines, and test to make sure the reprogramming was done correctly. By the time they finished that, they’d be past the deadline anyway. Miami-Dade brought in 4 additional machines and didn’t have this issue. By the way, the machines, which came from Nebraska, would undoubtedly have to be programmed but not reprogrammed, as they weren’t set up in Florida to begin with. I don’t know how long it take to program the machines, but it seems likely it wouldn’t long enough to delay the recount significantly. Doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/48 "2018-11-13T21:43:18Z")
[A Leon County circuit judge ruled Tuesday that the recount of midterm votes in Palm Beach County, Fla., will be extended to Nov. 20, five days after the initial deadline.](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/416512-judge-orders-recount-extended-for-pbc-to-nov-20) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/49 "2018-11-13T22:36:25Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Miami-Dade brought in 4 additional machines and didn’t have this issue. When? Two weeks before the election? Two days after? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/50 "2018-11-13T22:45:48Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It is amazing that millions of Floridians were able to navigate the complexities of properly marking their ballots. I think that a rejection of a vote is self-selecting. If you are too stupid to follow the instructions on how to vote so that the machine did not count it, then that was a vote that did not need to be counted. > > It further amazes me how Democrats want to portray Republican voters as backwoods idiot rednecks yet they support counting moron votes because they know that is where they get the most votes. Seems like a common refrain from conservatives: “If you can’t return a postcard, you don’t deserve to vote.” “If you don’t have an address because we refuse to deliver mail to your door, you don’t deserve to vote.” “If you misread something or skip a vote you don’t care about, you don’t deserve to vote.” So much for defending democracy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/51 "2018-11-13T22:46:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If the ballots are designed such that idiots _on both sides_ can’t figure it out, well, I’d still argue that that’s less than ideal, but at least it’s fair. Not necessarily. Remember that, in Florida, each county designs its own ballot. That’s why in 2000, Palm Beach County had the infamous ‘butterfly ballot’ but nobody else did. It’s why in 2000, Duval County had ballot instructions reminding people to vote on every page, even though the list of Presidential candidates took up two pages, and a bunch of ballots were disqualified as overvotes because people voted on both pages - but this didn’t happen elsewhere. So let’s assume that there’s some ballot problem that causes 10% of ballots to be screwed up for whatever reason, but Dems and Pubbies and independents are equally susceptible to whatever’s causing the ballot to be filled in incorrectly. Now let’s assume that this ballot design is being used in a county where 100,000 people vote, and it’s 70-30 Republican. The ballot problem is going to disqualify 7000 Republican voters and 3000 Dem voters. That would be fair for any county-level races, but its effect on a statewide race would be lopsided, and unfairly disadvantageous to the Republican statewide candidates. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/52 "2018-11-13T23:01:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If the ballots are designed such that idiots _on both sides_ can’t figure it out, well, I’d still argue that that’s less than ideal, but at least it’s fair. But if the ballots are designed so that it’s easier to figure out how to vote for one side than for the other, so that one side’s idiots get to vote and the other side’s idiots don’t, well, that’s a problem. And that was the case both with the butterfly ballots, and with these ballots. 1. How is this election like the butterfly ballot? 2. If you cannot follow an arrow, you are too stupid to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/53 "2018-11-13T23:57:03Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > 1. How is this election like the butterfly ballot? > > 2. If you cannot follow an arrow, you are too stupid to vote. I’m honestly curious about this theory of political philosophy. If I fail to return a postcard, does this mean I have somehow consented to taxation without representation? If I fail to follow a set of instructions (or follow a set of instructions that were misleading or false), does this somehow justify governance _without_ the consent of the governed? If I decide that I cannot afford to take time off work to hunt down a birth certificate to take more time off work to hoof it to the DMV to get a photo ID I don’t need for anything other than voting, does this mean democracy should be abridged for me? I greatly look forward to your myriad advances in the field of political philosophy, in this new branch I shall call the “Got mine, fuck yours” school of pseudodemocracy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/54 "2018-11-14T00:48:25Z")
Voting is not supposed to be hard, but it’s not supposed to be idiot proof either. It is well established that if you’re mentally incompetent, you don’t vote. I have no problem believing that 3% of the voters in Broward County are mentally incompetent and probably shouldn’t be voting. And on the Senate race, they didn’t. Because they forgot there was a Senate race. Look, if you don’t know there’s a Senate race when you go to vote, it’s best that you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/55 "2018-11-14T00:50:10Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > [A Leon County circuit judge ruled Tuesday that the recount of midterm votes in Palm Beach County, Fla., will be extended to Nov. 20, five days after the initial deadline.](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/416512-judge-orders-recount-extended-for-pbc-to-nov-20) On what grounds? The law is clear. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/56 "2018-11-14T00:56:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Voting is not supposed to be hard, but it’s not supposed to be idiot proof either. It is well established that if you’re mentally incompetent, you don’t vote. I have no problem believing that 3% of the voters in Broward County are mentally incompetent and probably shouldn’t be voting. And on the Senate race, they didn’t. Because they forgot there was a Senate race. Look, if you don’t know there’s a Senate race when you go to vote, it’s best that you don’t. Cute - but when it’s [only in Broward County,](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/something-looks-weird-in-broward-county-heres-what-we-know-about-a-possible-florida-recount/) things start to look a little funny. In every other county, the undervotes for Senate were all less than 1%. While Broward county may have four times as many idiots, in that one particular way, it seems unlikely. I suspect some sort of calibration issue in Broward county, myself - their machines, for whatever reason, weren’t set up properly. Until someone looks at the ballots, we won’t know. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/57 "2018-11-14T02:12:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > On what grounds? The law is clear. Maybe the right of the voters to have their votes counted, and counted correctly, overrides artificial statutory deadlines? Just a hunch - I haven’t read the decision. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/58 "2018-11-14T02:18:53Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > When? Two weeks before the election? Two days after? They ordered them last Thursday and received them yesterday, I believe. [According to the Miami Herald,](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article221544825.html) on Thursday the Miami-Dade elections supervisor also got permission from the canvassing board to have employees start separating the first page (which has the three key races on it) from the rest of the ballot. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/59 "2018-11-14T02:30:09Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Maybe the right of the voters to have their votes counted, and counted correctly, overrides artificial statutory deadlines? > > Just a hunch - I haven’t read the decision. Where in the Constitution is that clause? And if it’s there, why have any election laws at all? Means legally I can vote for President in 2020 right now. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/60 "2018-11-14T02:32:53Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Cute - but when it’s [only in Broward County,](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/something-looks-weird-in-broward-county-heres-what-we-know-about-a-possible-florida-recount/) things start to look a little funny. In every other county, the undervotes for Senate were all less than 1%. While Broward county may have four times as many idiots, in that one particular way, it seems unlikely. > > I suspect some sort of calibration issue in Broward county, myself - their machines, for whatever reason, weren’t set up properly. Until someone looks at the ballots, we won’t know. I live in Broward County and had that ballot. It never would have occurred to me that there would be a problem. The Senate race was the first race listed and it was at the bottom left. Only way to miss it is if you don’t know there’s a Senate race. And even if you did miss it and know there’s a Senate race, you’ll look for it and find it very easily. Bill Nelson thinks it’s a calibration issue as well, and he may end up being right. The hand recount will find a lot of new votes if that’s the case, perhaps enough to give Nelson the race. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=4)