# Florida recount **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389 "2018-11-12T03:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/101 "2018-11-14T20:36:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > As you might imagine, the constitutional jurisprudence on elections is more complicated than that. Often these laws about timing are found to be unconstitutional. There are many reasons why this happens. Common ones are: (1) the law treats similarly situated voters differently; (2) the law was designed to disenfranchise certain voters; and (3) the law lacks sufficient justification given the impact it has on the franchise. > > For example, I expect the ACLU of PA to win this lawsuit about timing: [ACLU Sues Over Pennsylvania Absentee Ballot Deadlines | 90.5 WESA](http://www.wesa.fm/post/aclu-sues-over-pennsylvania-absentee-ballot-deadlines#stream/0) > > Obviously, you are right that some subset of laws about timing are perfectly constitutional. But that’s why we have the courts: to decide which are which. I understand that, but those cases themselves are based upon racism. It would be like saying that a 70mph speed limit violates equal protection because white people are responsible drivers but only those wild blacks like to drive their sports cars really fast, therefore, the speed limit has a disparate impact on black people. It’s absurd and feeds into the ideas that the KKK would be proud to promote. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/102 "2018-11-14T21:24:03Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I think that a cobbling together of many Supreme Court decisions show that there is clearly a right to vote by adult citizens. But like with any human enterprise, including football games, there have to be administrative regulations that set certain boundaries. > > I mean, I had a right to vote in the 2012 election, but nobody would seriously argue that I can cast my ballot NOW for that election. Reasonable rules set reasonable deadlines for my vote to count. That’s the absurd case. Agreed. > [@](#): > > Why couldn’t it be argued that by mailing in a ballot, one takes the risk that the ballot will be lost in the mail or delayed due to unforeseen consequences? There is that risk. And if the ballots had shown up after all the counting and recounting had been completed and the results certified, I’d agree that even if those votes would have tipped the outcome my way, it’s too late and life just sucks sometimes. But we’re talking about an election where the counting is _in progress_. There’s no reason, other than an excessive devotion to arbitrary rules, to not count those ballots. > [@](#): > > Now, maybe there should be a law that says that in exceptional circumstances like a bomb threat at the post office, late arriving ballots shall be counted. Maybe not. Does the Constitution really require such a law? That seems specious at best. Who needs a law to say that? It should be just the standard default: if counting isn’t done, and legitimate ballots are still turning up, you count them. _Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh._ Stuff like this is going to happen, as long as we have the jerry-rigged voting system we have, dependent on 3000 different counties’ ways of doing things, and an army of volunteer and/or trivially-paid temporary election workers. Every election, for instance, boxes of ballots turn up in the trunk of an election worker’s car. > [@](#): > > Likewise with recount deadlines. You know on election night that there may be a recount, so it is up to the officials to gather staff and machines to make sure that the counting is done by the deadline. If they fail to do that, is that a Constitutional violation? That starts down the slippery slope because the deadlines are there exactly so the government officials complete their tasks in an efficient manner. If you hold that the deadlines violate a Constitutional right to vote, then you encourage or allow sloppy behavior by election officials. Well, of course an insistence on not allowing election officials any slack in their schedule should take precedence over voters’ rights to have their votes counted properly. Gotta have our priorities properly aligned! > [@](#): > > I simply cannot see how these regulatory and facially neutral laws like deadlines are a violation of the right to vote. You have a right to vote, you just must do so in a timely fashion. Sure, one must **vote** , or at least be in line to vote, by the time the polls close on election day. I’ve got no problem with that. But what does that have to do with **administrative** deadlines, where compliance is completely outside the control of the voter? Why should the fate of my vote be caught up in squabbles between the state and the county? What does that have to do with the legitimacy of my vote? Once I vote, their job is to make sure it’s counted properly, no matter which ‘they’ we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/103 "2018-11-14T21:26:56Z")
That PA lawsuit doesn’t seem to be based on racism. But on the effect the law has the voting process itself. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/104 "2018-11-14T21:29:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Most rules are arbitrary. I can drive 70 on the interstate, but not 71. Is there any measurable degree of increased harm to other motorists because of one measly mile per hour? No. But you could argue that all the way up incrementally by 1mph to 200mph. > > There has to be a deadline for votes to come in and one time is just as good as another. Has the deadline ever been an issue in Broward? That is, has the date as currently set ever been tested as to whether it is appropriate and fair? In any case, given that the winners in the elections at hand won’t be sworn into office until next year, then why not extend the deadline to ensure that all votes are counted accurately? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/105 "2018-11-14T23:23:41Z")
How I love these authoritarian, “If you make a mistake, you’re out” pontifications. Have you ever watched an optical scanner in operation? I have–not on votes, but on standardized tests. Those suckers are sensitive, and sometimes they screw up. Should all ballots that are rejected by a machine the first time through not be counted, even if it turns out to be machine error? Furthermore, if some poor schmuck doesn’t get his pen mark completely within the oval on one race, do you really think his votes on \*\*all \*\*the other races shouldn’t count? A cop who taught at the state police academy told me that all drivers break the law many times per day. Think about your driving today. Did you turn on your blinker precisely 100 feet before the turn? Did you make a right-hand turn into the left lane? Did you stop 4 inches into the crosswalk? Tut-tut. If you can’t follow all the rules perfectly, you shouldn’t get to drive. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/106 "2018-11-14T23:28:19Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Let’s say there’s a state statute that says: in between the voting and the counting, the election officials are to choose one ballot in each race which they should choose as they see fit, and throw the rest in the incinerator. > > What you’re saying is that this statute would be perfectly legit because nowhere in the Constitution does it mention a right of citizens to have their votes counted. > > That’s an interesting stance, to put it mildly. Dates and deadlines do not present constitutional issues though. States can have early voting or they can mandate voting on the first Tuesday of November. They have to certify results in time or else they lose representation when the next Congress opens, so they need a deadline for that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/107 "2018-11-14T23:30:06Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > We really need a nationwide uniform ballot for voting for Federal offices: President/VP, Senator, Representative. The states would determine what names are on it, same as now, but the **structure** of the ballot would be the same everywhere, and would be tested within an inch of its life. None of this nonsense where each state, and in some states each county, can have a totally untested ballot design that nobody else has, at least not for Federal offices. That’s a terrible idea because if the design is poor you’ve screwed up all of the elections in the country. And there’s no way to know for sure that a design won’t confuse a small percentage of people. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/108 "2018-11-14T23:42:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s a terrible idea because if the design is poor you’ve screwed up all of the elections in the country. And there’s no way to know for sure that a design won’t confuse a small percentage of people. Hence, “tested”. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/109 "2018-11-15T03:05:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Dates and deadlines do not present constitutional issues though. States can have early voting or they can mandate voting on the first Tuesday of November. They have to certify results in time or else they lose representation when the next Congress opens, so they need a deadline for that. “The Constitution says you can vote, but it doesn’t say your vote has to be counted correctly.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/110 "2018-11-15T04:11:32Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Hence, “tested”. Given the small percentages involved, you’d need to test it on thousands of people to get an answer on whether the ballot is good or not. Or, you could just use a little common sense and assume that voters have common sense. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/111 "2018-11-15T04:14:29Z")
BTW, Palm Beach County asked for an extension of the deadline, but it doesn’t look like there’s much effort. > **[Palm Beach County needs to recount votes, but it's all quiet Wednesday night](https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/politics/elections/palm-beach-county-needs-to-recount-votes-but-its-all-quiet-wednesday-night/67-614703354)** > > Reporters at a Palm Beach County tabulation center report nothing of note going on -- except the lack of counting a day before the deadline. So at what point should there be a deadline enforced? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/112 "2018-11-15T04:17:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, Palm Beach County asked for an extension of the deadline, but it doesn’t look like there’s much effort. > > [Palm Beach County needs to recount votes, but it's all quiet Wednesday night | wtsp.com](https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/politics/elections/palm-beach-county-needs-to-recount-votes-but-its-all-quiet-wednesday-night/67-614703354) > > So at what point should there be a deadline enforced? Relevant piece suspiciously ignored: > [@Cite](#): > > “when its machines overheated” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/113 "2018-11-15T05:04:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Agreed. There is that risk. And if the ballots had shown up after all the counting and recounting had been completed and the results certified, I’d agree that even if those votes would have tipped the outcome my way, it’s too late and life just sucks sometimes. > > But we’re talking about an election where the counting is _in progress_. There’s no reason, other than an excessive devotion to arbitrary rules, to not count those ballots. Who needs a law to say that? It should be just the standard default: if counting isn’t done, and legitimate ballots are still turning up, you count them. _Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh._ > > Stuff like this is going to happen, as long as we have the jerry-rigged voting system we have, dependent on 3000 different counties’ ways of doing things, and an army of volunteer and/or trivially-paid temporary election workers. Every election, for instance, boxes of ballots turn up in the trunk of an election worker’s car. Well, of course an insistence on not allowing election officials any slack in their schedule should take precedence over voters’ rights to have their votes counted properly. Gotta have our priorities properly aligned! Sure, one must **vote** , or at least be in line to vote, by the time the polls close on election day. I’ve got no problem with that. > > But what does that have to do with **administrative** deadlines, where compliance is completely outside the control of the voter? Why should the fate of my vote be caught up in squabbles between the state and the county? What does that have to do with the legitimacy of my vote? Once I vote, their job is to make sure it’s counted properly, no matter which ‘they’ we’re talking about. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Has the deadline ever been an issue in Broward? That is, has the date as currently set ever been tested as to whether it is appropriate and fair? In any case, given that the winners in the elections at hand won’t be sworn into office until next year, then why not extend the deadline to ensure that all votes are counted accurately? You both make excellent arguments as to why the law should be different. But the fact remains that the law is not what you prefer, or what I prefer. I think it is only fair to count these ballots in Opa Locka. There is no indication of fraud and these voters did nothing dilatory or wrongful by mailing them. But the law says they must arrive at the county election center by 7 p.m. on election day. They did not so arrive. Therefore, they should not be counted. The Legislature should amend that law. That doesn’t change the fact that the law is what it is. It is facially neutral and does not have disparate impact on Republicans, Democrats, whites, blacks, or gay people. I do not see how it could be considered unconstitutional. Since we are still in the counting process, can a Florida voter who did not vote stumble out onto A1A and yell, I vote for Rick Scott for Senate! and have his voted counted? I mean, the intent of a legal voter, right? Isn’t it fair that we count his vote? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/114 "2018-11-15T09:22:50Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Are you insinuating that I would DARE impugn the morality and righteousness of Republicans, implying that they did something illegal during a very close election, via sarcastic incrimination? > > Because I absolutely did. The party crying about voter fraud is actively committing voter fraud. I’m sorry the sarcasm didn’t carry. 😃 Excellent! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/115 "2018-11-15T10:28:05Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You both make excellent arguments as to why the law should be different. But the fact remains that the law is not what you prefer, or what I prefer. I think it is only fair to count these ballots in Opa Locka. There is no indication of fraud and these voters did nothing dilatory or wrongful by mailing them. > > But the law says they must arrive at the county election center by 7 p.m. on election day. They did not so arrive. Therefore, they should not be counted. This is why we regard the right to vote as a fundamental right that can’t be overruled by laws. Because the laws would prevent voters’ votes from being counted, even though they voted legally, because some minor civil servant screwed up. To apply the law as written would deprive people of their franchise after they’d done what they needed to do to exercise it. And that’s why the courts are telling the law to back off and give a bit more room to get the counting done. > [@](#): > > The Legislature should amend that law. That doesn’t change the fact that the law is what it is. It is facially neutral and does not have disparate impact on Republicans, Democrats, whites, blacks, or gay people. I do not see how it could be considered unconstitutional. While processes that had disparate impacts on one protected group or another would also be subject to challenge, those are not the only grounds, are they? > [@](#): > > Since we are still in the counting process, can a Florida voter who did not vote stumble out onto A1A and yell, I vote for Rick Scott for Senate! and have his voted counted? I mean, the intent of a legal voter, right? Isn’t it fair that we count his vote? You keep bringing this up. Could you explain what it has to do with my argument? I’ve been clear that voters must vote, or at a minimum be in line to vote, by the time the polls are supposed to close. But once they’ve voted, every effort must be made to count their votes, and count them correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/116 "2018-11-15T12:52:31Z")
and I guess it’s OK for the GOP to stop vote counting with a lawsuit? [Utah Rep. Love sues to halt vote count - POLITICO](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/15/utah-mia-love-elections-991278) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/117 "2018-11-15T13:14:38Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > and I guess it’s OK for the GOP to stop vote counting with a lawsuit? > > [https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/15/utah-mia-love-elections-991278](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/15/utah-mia-love-elections-991278) But only in the county where her opponent has most of his support. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/118 "2018-11-15T13:49:44Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Huh. I just had a look at my ballot info (I live overseas, and vote out of Marion County, FL), and it tells me my ballot was tabulated. They received it on October 5 - wonder when they counted it? Wondering the same thing - Pasco County notified me of receipt long before election day, but I have no idea when (or indeed whether) it was actually counted. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/119 "2018-11-15T14:37:12Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Wondering the same thing - Pasco County notified me of receipt long before election day, but I have no idea when (or indeed whether) it was actually counted. Found [this blurb on the Sun-Sentinel website](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-how-to-check-your-vote-20181109-story.html): > [@](#): > > **Mail-in Ballots** > > First, head over to the Division of Elections website to look up your voter information at [State of Florida Voter Lookup | Search](http://Registration.elections.myflorida.com/CheckVoterStatus). There, you’ll enter your full name and date of birth. After clicking on “submit,” you’ll be taken to a new page that lists all of your voter registration information — your address, voter ID number, political party and the date you first registered at this address. > > Scroll down a bit and you’ll see a link for “Ballot and precinct information.” Click that, and it will take you right to your county supervisor of elections website, with all your information already filled in, and a listing of when the ballot was sent to you, when it was received by the elections office and whether it’s been tabulated. If it isn’t showing as tabulated, you have until 5pm Saturday to fix that. Don’t have the info on that handy; I’ll try to dig that out later. ETA: Please share this widely - make sure any Floridians you know who might have voted by mail has this info! ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/120 "2018-11-15T15:24:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Given the small percentages involved, you’d need to test it on thousands of people to get an answer on whether the ballot is good or not. Yes, exactly. More testing is better than less. Sounds easy enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=7)