# Florida recount **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389 "2018-11-12T03:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/121 "2018-11-15T15:59:05Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But the law says they must arrive at the county election center by 7 p.m. on election day. They did not so arrive. Therefore, they should not be counted. The Legislature should amend that law. That doesn’t change the fact that the law is what it is. It is facially neutral and does not have disparate impact on Republicans, Democrats, whites, blacks, or gay people. I do not see how it could be considered unconstitutional. You are grounded enough in the basis of English common law systems to know that the limit of what courts can/should do is not the specific letter of a given statute. If that were the case, many legal disputes in the US would be much, much easier to deal with. Not saying whether or not I believe what is being done is right, just that you cannot go: “The statute says X, so tough titties!” and have that be the final say on court authority. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/122 "2018-11-15T16:03:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You both make excellent arguments as to why the law should be different. But the fact remains that the law is not what you prefer, or what I prefer. I think it is only fair to count these ballots in Opa Locka. There is no indication of fraud and these voters did nothing dilatory or wrongful by mailing them. > > But the law says they must arrive at the county election center by 7 p.m. on election day. They did not so arrive. Therefore, they should not be counted. The Legislature should amend that law. That doesn’t change the fact that the law is what it is. It is facially neutral and does not have disparate impact on Republicans, Democrats, whites, blacks, or gay people. I do not see how it could be considered unconstitutional. > > Since we are still in the counting process, can a Florida voter who did not vote stumble out onto A1A and yell, I vote for Rick Scott for Senate! and have his voted counted? I mean, the intent of a legal voter, right? Isn’t it fair that we count his vote? Thanks for responding. I’ve got nothing more to add, really, to what others have said. **DSYoungEsq** ’s “tough titties” argument pretty much sums it up for me. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/123 "2018-11-15T16:18:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Found [this blurb on the Sun-Sentinel website](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-how-to-check-your-vote-20181109-story.html): > If it isn’t showing as tabulated, you have until 5pm Saturday to fix that. Don’t have the info on that handy; I’ll try to dig that out later. > > ETA: Please share this widely - make sure any Floridians you know who might have voted by mail has this info! Excellent, thank you! I’ve used the site to check my registration but the ballot-specific link doesn’t exactly jump out at you. Ballot was recorded received October 22 and was tabulated. Can’t ask for more than that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/124 "2018-11-15T19:57:21Z")
Apparently, the deadline extension will be the only one: [https://www.wsls.com/news/politics/palm-beach-county-in-danger-of-missing-recount-deadline](https://www.wsls.com/news/politics/palm-beach-county-in-danger-of-missing-recount-deadline) I’d note that this is not disenfranchising anyone. It’s a recount, which is no more accurate than the first count, it’s just a different count. There is no constitutional right to a recount. All recounts are done within time limits and if they fail the first count is the final count. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/125 "2018-11-15T20:42:49Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Excellent, thank you! I’ve used the site to check my registration but the ballot-specific link doesn’t exactly jump out at you. > > Ballot was recorded received October 22 and was tabulated. Can’t ask for more than that. Yay!! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/126 "2018-11-15T21:12:14Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This is why we regard the right to vote as a fundamental right that can’t be overruled by laws. Because the laws would prevent voters’ votes from being counted, even though they voted legally, because some minor civil servant screwed up. > > To apply the law as written would deprive people of their franchise after they’d done what they needed to do to exercise it. And that’s why the courts are telling the law to back off and give a bit more room to get the counting done. > While processes that had disparate impacts on one protected group or another would also be subject to challenge, those are not the only grounds, are they? You keep bringing this up. Could you explain what it has to do with my argument? I’ve been clear that voters must vote, or at a minimum be in line to vote, by the time the polls are supposed to close. But once they’ve voted, every effort must be made to count their votes, and count them correctly. Then all you have is a court setting another arbitrary deadline. The law says that the ballots must arrive by 7 p.m. Tuesday. My ballot arrived on Wednesday. I present your argument and the court agrees that this is close enough. The next guy whose ballot arrived on Thursday makes the same argument and he wins. At some point the court will have to say no to these requests (lest the deadline stretch until eternity) and say that Sunday is the latest day for ballots to be received. Gavel bangs. Well, Sunday is not objectively better than Tuesday. Such a thing is not based upon any meaningful legal principle such as the right to vote. All you have now is a court using its imperial power to displace the rules made by the people’s representatives in the Legislature. To your second point, what exactly does it mean to “vote”? If I stand in line at the polls and mark an x on my ballot when I should have filled in the bubble, then did I actually vote? I would say no because the machines will not count my vote. I think you would say yes because even though I did not correctly follow the procedure, my intent can be gleaned by the X next to a candidate’s name. But if we allow that, why not allow a voter to verbally declare in the streets his vote? It is against the rules, but so is making an X. Why shouldn’t these emailed in ballots count in the Panhandle? Is your point that the voter can screw up the voting process a little bit, but not a lot? Who determines that? A judge again? How about we just follow the rules? Yes, they can be unfair at times, but so is any human endeavor. But what it guarantees is at least an agreed upon process and not one where people can actually claim unfairness because the rules changed in the middle of the game. Yes, there seems to be a Constitutional right to vote, but how is that stifled by saying that you must vote by 7pm on Election Day? Things get lost or delayed in the mail. The federal government cannot guarantee that every single piece of mail always arrives at its destination on time or even at all, and a voter who places his ballot in the mail is aware of this possibility. How is it a denial of you right to vote by requiring that the ballot be filled out correctly? To me, that would be like saying that you were denied your freedom of religion because you made a wrong turn and were late in arriving at church. I would agree with your points if the government intentionally made the ballots confusing or intentionally refused to deliver the mail, but there is no evidence of that here. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/127 "2018-11-15T21:21:43Z")
[The remarks of Mark Walker](https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Finishes-Machine-Recount-of-2018-Election-Votes-Ahead-of-Thursday-Deadline-500571281.html), the US District judge who refused to extend the deadline for Palm Beach county are particularly relevant to this discussion. All bolding is mine. > [@](#): > > Earlier in the day, Walker slammed Florida for repeatedly failing to anticipate election problems, and said the state law on recounts appears to violate the U.S. Supreme Court ruling that decided the presidency in 2000. > > “We have we have been the laughing stock of the world, election after election, and we chose not to fix this,” Walker said in court. > > Walker vented his anger at state lawmakers but also Palm Beach County officials, saying t\*\*hey should have made sure they had enough equipment in place to handle this kind of a recount. \*\* > > **The overarching problem was created by the Florida Legislature, which Walker said passed a recount law that appears to run afoul of the 2000 Bush v. Gore decision, by locking in procedures that don’t allow for potential problems.** There’s no excuse for any of this. Can the lawsuits be resolved, corrective legislation enacted, and systems changed before the 2020 election? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/128 "2018-11-15T21:38:11Z")
Yes, **adaher** , a nationwide ballot design would require thousands of testers. Which makes it much easier than the current system. There are over 3,000 counties in the US. Thousands of testers for one design is much easier than thousands of designs. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/129 "2018-11-15T21:50:59Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Then all you have is a court setting another arbitrary deadline. The law says that the ballots must arrive by 7 p.m. Tuesday. My ballot arrived on Wednesday. I present your argument and the court agrees that this is close enough. The next guy whose ballot arrived on Thursday makes the same argument and he wins. > > At some point the court will have to say no to these requests (lest the deadline stretch until eternity) and say that Sunday is the latest day for ballots to be received. Gavel bangs. Well, Sunday is not objectively better than Tuesday. Such a thing is not based upon any meaningful legal principle such as the right to vote. All you have now is a court using its imperial power to displace the rules made by the people’s representatives in the Legislature. > > To your second point, what exactly does it mean to “vote”? If I stand in line at the polls and mark an x on my ballot when I should have filled in the bubble, then did I actually vote? I would say no because the machines will not count my vote. I think you would say yes because even though I did not correctly follow the procedure, my intent can be gleaned by the X next to a candidate’s name. > > But if we allow that, why not allow a voter to verbally declare in the streets his vote? It is against the rules, but so is making an X. Why shouldn’t these emailed in ballots count in the Panhandle? Is your point that the voter can screw up the voting process a little bit, but not a lot? Who determines that? A judge again? > > How about we just follow the rules? Yes, they can be unfair at times, but so is any human endeavor. But what it guarantees is at least an agreed upon process and not one where people can actually claim unfairness because the rules changed in the middle of the game. > > Yes, there seems to be a Constitutional right to vote, but how is that stifled by saying that you must vote by 7pm on Election Day? Things get lost or delayed in the mail. The federal government cannot guarantee that every single piece of mail always arrives at its destination on time or even at all, and a voter who places his ballot in the mail is aware of this possibility. > > How is it a denial of you right to vote by requiring that the ballot be filled out correctly? To me, that would be like saying that you were denied your freedom of religion because you made a wrong turn and were late in arriving at church. > > I would agree with your points if the government intentionally made the ballots confusing or intentionally refused to deliver the mail, but there is no evidence of that here. You keep referring to **RULES** when they’re actually **INSTRUCTIONS**. There’s no law that says voters must fill in the oval completely; they’re simply advised to do so to reduce the possibility of a machine misread. (When ballots were still hand-counted, the X in the oval would not have been rejected.) So yes, if you put an X in the oval, you have marked your ballot and have in fact voted. And that vote should count. The machine is the servant, not the master. As for your take-it-to-extremes hypothetical, shouting in the street wouldn’t count because a vote by definition is a formal or official indication of a choice between candidates (initiatives, referendums, propositions, etc.). Unless you live in some strange and mythical land where officials sit at a table on the street and voters approach them and yell out their votes, which are then recorded, in which case, yeah, I guess, because that’s formal and official. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/130 "2018-11-15T21:55:07Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > [The remarks of Mark Walker](https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Finishes-Machine-Recount-of-2018-Election-Votes-Ahead-of-Thursday-Deadline-500571281.html), the US District judge who refused to extend the deadline for Palm Beach county are particularly relevant to this discussion. All bolding is mine. > > There’s no excuse for any of this. Can the lawsuits be resolved, corrective legislation enacted, and systems changed before the 2020 election? I agree with **adaher** , above. I do not believe that this is any sort of failure at all. When you have millions of votes and the election is so close as to fall within 1/4 of 1%, you are simply asking for too much precision of human beings to see who actually won. As he noted, why do we have more confidence in the results of a recount than we do the initial count? I would guess that things like this happen in every election in every state every single time. It is just that Florida has been unlucky enough to have two such extremely close elections where looking for handfuls of votes here and there could possibly make a difference. I’m sure that in West Virginia, for example, we could find that votes were mishandled or improperly counted or not counted, but the margin was wide enough to not make a difference so there is no outrage. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/131 "2018-11-16T00:58:11Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Then all you have is a court setting another arbitrary deadline. Then all you have is a court[del]setting another arbitrary deadline.[/del], who is an actual person, taking into account the particular circumstances of this situation in applying the Constitution and the laws. FTFY again. > [@](#): > > To your second point, what exactly does it mean to “vote”? If I stand in line at the polls and mark an x on my ballot when I should have filled in the bubble, then did I actually vote? I would say no because the machines will not count my vote. I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. That’s not what you would say. I leave it to you to figure out why - but you’ve said over and over again that that isn’t what you’d say. Damned if I know why you’re now saying that IS what you’d say. But it flies in the face of practically everything you’ve said in this entire thread. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/132 "2018-11-16T01:14:35Z")
Broward county missed the deadline by [two minutes](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-broward-palm-first-recount-20181115-story.html), so the recount will not count. Apparently the election in Florida is run by magical fairies. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/133 "2018-11-16T03:03:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree with **adaher** , above. I do not believe that this is any sort of failure at all. When you have millions of votes and the election is so close as to fall within 1/4 of 1%, you are simply asking for too much precision of human beings to see who actually won. > > As he noted, why do we have more confidence in the results of a recount than we do the initial count? > > I would guess that things like this happen in every election in every state every single time. It is just that Florida has been unlucky enough to have two such extremely close elections where looking for handfuls of votes here and there could possibly make a difference. > > I’m sure that in West Virginia, for example, we could find that votes were mishandled or improperly counted or not counted, but the margin was wide enough to not make a difference so there is no outrage. Sweet, you’ll be ok with us just putting Gillum in the Governor’s mansion, then? After all, no need for actual results, let’s just do whatever the fuck we want! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/134 "2018-11-16T03:36:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m arguing that the purpose of an election is to determine the will of the voters. If an election is this close, that cannot be done. Things happen, like 20,000 voters failing to find the Senate race on their ballots, or weather keeping people from the polls, or lack of machines. None of this is enough to flip a race that’s decisive, but in close races it makes the result suspect. Let’s end these suspect results and just declare a tie, and then have tiebreaker rules, which could mean runoffs, incumbent party always loses, each candidate serves half the term, or even a coin flip. But stop doing these damn recounts because they always end in hard feelings and mistrust. Either the first result is the result, or declare ties in close races. > > There is zero evidence that the recount will produce a more accurate result than the first count did. It certainly can’t make up for the other errors in the system, such as 20K voters not voting in the Senate race in Broward. > > It is safe to say, at least in the Senate race, that it is impossible to determine the will of the people.\*\* CAn we all agree on that? And if so, what’s the best way to handle that problem?\*\* For the sake of argument, sure. And the best way to handle the problem? That’s an easy one: Given the fact that holding elective office as a Republican is indistinguishable from a crime against humanity\*, the BEST way to handle the problem is to give it to the Democrat. Or **A** Democrat. Any Democrat will do. The one who appeared on the ballot would probably present the fewest difficulties, though. \*And this IS a given, BTW. Don’t think that, being unable to argue against my logic, there is any recourse to be gained by denying my starting premises. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/135 "2018-11-16T03:39:54Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Broward county missed the deadline by [two minutes](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-broward-palm-first-recount-20181115-story.html), so the recount will not count. Apparently the election in Florida is run by magical fairies. And the receiver was only out of bounds by two inches. Two minutes late is not on time. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/136 "2018-11-16T03:42:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > And the receiver was only out of bounds by two inches. Two minutes late is not on time. This isn’t a game. This is finding out who the people wanted to represent them. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/137 "2018-11-16T03:53:29Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Then all you have is a court[del]setting another arbitrary deadline.[/del], who is an actual person, taking into account the particular circumstances of this situation in applying the Constitution and the laws. > > FTFY again. > > I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. That’s not what you would say. > > I leave it to you to figure out why - but you’ve said over and over again that that isn’t what you’d say. Damned if I know why you’re now saying that IS what you’d say. But it flies in the face of practically everything you’ve said in this entire thread. Go figure. The Constitution requires Saturday instead of last Tuesday? Only a radical activist judge could hold that way and that judge should be impeached for his ridiculous reading of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/138 "2018-11-16T06:52:35Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree with **adaher** , above. I do not believe that this is any sort of failure at all. When you have millions of votes and the election is so close as to fall within 1/4 of 1%, you are simply asking for too much precision of human beings to see who actually won. > > As he noted, why do we have more confidence in the results of a recount than we do the initial count? > > I would guess that things like this happen in every election in every state every single time. It is just that Florida has been unlucky enough to have two such extremely close elections where looking for handfuls of votes here and there could possibly make a difference. > > I’m sure that in West Virginia, for example, we could find that votes were mishandled or improperly counted or not counted, but the margin was wide enough to not make a difference so there is no outrage. We’re asking too much of humans to find out who actually won? Wow. If finding out who actually won is impossible, let’s just estimate and skip counting. If a Democrat leads by a razor-thin margin in any future election, you’d better stick to your guns on the futility of determining who actually won. Why do we have more confidence in the recount? Because it’s actually an audit. It’s carefully watched by observers from both sides, and it’s conducted with much less haste and more deliberation.You might logically argue that the original count should be done this way, and I’d agree with you. So we wouldn’t know election results within hours. So what? It’s not like terms expire and officials have to be sworn in within days. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/139 "2018-11-16T09:32:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The Constitution requires Saturday instead of last Tuesday? Only a radical activist judge could hold that way and that judge should be impeached for his ridiculous reading of the Constitution. It would help if you made it clear which of my remarks you’re responding to. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389/140 "2018-11-16T09:39:18Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > And the receiver was only out of bounds by two inches. Two minutes late is not on time. Because it’s just a big old game, right? Anyway, Rick Scott: > [@](#): > > Last week, Florida voters elected me as their next U.S. Senator and now the ballots have been counted twice. I am incredibly proud and humbled by the opportunity to serve Florida in Washington. Our state needs to move forward. and now **some of** the ballots have been counted twice. FTFY, Rick. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-recount/824389.md?page=8)