# Florida redistricting lawsuit **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478 "2014-05-28T17:49:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/41 "2014-05-30T17:45:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … and? … and since all politics are local, running it on proportional representation basis where huge swaths of the country are basically, politically, ignored is not a better system. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/42 "2014-05-30T17:56:08Z")
How are they ignored? They’ll still have votes. They just won’t have a disproportionate level of influence anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/43 "2014-05-30T18:06:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > ND, DE, WY, SD and AK do. And under US Constitution you need them to approve in order to get to that proportional representation system. Well, you need 3/4 of the states, but you know what I mean. Nonsense. North Dakota doesn’t care about anything, because North Dakota lacks a cerebrum in which “caring” can occur. The PEOPLE who live in ND care, of course. And if enough of the people in ND and WY and SD and AK agree with one another on the issues, then surprise surprise surprise, there will be enough vote to get someone in office to represent them. The current system, in which rural voters exercise outsize influence because We the People get confused between the amount of dirt in a state and the amount of people in a state, is totally bogus. And no, politics is no longer all local. Back before the Pony Express went into operation, that idea made a lot of sense. In an age in which I can communicate about voting districts on a messageboard with members all over the world and carry on a nearly instantaneous conversation, that idea makes a lot less sense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/44 "2014-05-30T18:43:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s even worse. So you may have no reps from some states at all. None. No, there will be no reps from **any** states at all. None. The reps would have their own home states but would not represent them as states; they would represent only their national partisan constituencies. The above is how straight party-list PR would work; there are other forms, including multi-member-district PR which retains the element of geographical representation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/45 "2014-05-30T18:48:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, there will be no reps from **any** states at all. None. The reps would have their own home states but would not represent them as states; they would represent only their national partisan constituencies. That won’t be USA. That will be some other country. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/46 "2014-05-30T19:25:20Z")
[This WaPo article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/05/30/florida-may-be-forced-to-redraw-political-districts-before-midterms/?tid=hpModule_ba0d4c2a-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394) gives the nitty-gritty as to what the lawsuit actually means: > [@](#): > > The trial is a culmination of a years-long battle over Florida’s political map, bringing in more than 30 current and former legislators as potential witnesses. Florida is one of the few states to apply rules to its congressional redistricting process, said Michael McDonald, a professor of politics at George Mason University and a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Brookings Institute. > > McDonald said it has the potential to reshape redistricting decisions across the country, as well as the party balance in the state legislature. > > “If it rules in favor of the plaintiffs, you’re talking about a potential four-seat swing to Democrats. That’s probably not enough for majority but it would make things more uncomfortable for Republicans,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/47 "2014-05-30T19:26:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That won’t be USA. That will be some other country. That will still be America. A nation is not its political system. Since 1789 France has been through five monarchies, five republics, and a period of fascist rule – yet through it all France has always remained France. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/48 "2014-05-30T19:32:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That will still be America. A nation is not its political system. Since 1789 France has been through five monarchies, five republics, and a period of fascist rule – yet through it all France has always remained France. Because France is an ethnic nation-state. USA isn’t. France is not defined by its political system. USA is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/49 "2014-05-30T19:54:55Z")
Since becoming the United States, we’ve grown by 70% (and much more in population terms), freed our slaves, given the vote to more than half of our citizenry who did not already have it, and gone from an agrarian society to an industrial economy to a service-based economy. I think we’ll probably be alright if we stop apportioning our political influence by arbitrary borders. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/50 "2014-05-30T20:02:59Z")
I doubt it. It would no longer be “United States,” for one. We are defined by our political system. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/51 "2014-05-30T20:10:35Z")
You’re joking, right? You think states will stop existing merely because we don’t apportion federal legislative representation according to their borders? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/52 "2014-05-30T20:28:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because France is an ethnic nation-state. USA isn’t. Yes, that’s exactly what the U.S. is – a nation-state like any other – and not, say, an idea-state like the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/53 "2014-05-30T20:31:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, that’s exactly what the U.S. is – a nation-state like any other No, not like any other. It is not an ethnic nation-state like France, or Germany. Ethnic nation-states are defined by their ethnicity and related culture. Thus they can survive political system changes. USA is not like that. And won’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/54 "2014-05-30T20:57:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, not like any other. It is not an ethnic nation-state like France, or Germany. Ethnic nation-states are defined by their ethnicity and related culture. Thus they can survive political system changes. USA is not like that. And won’t. Tsk. You really need to read [_The Next American Nation,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Next_American_Nation) by Michael Lind; he considers and refutes the “idea-state” theory quite definitively. I’ll dig you up some relevant excerpts later, time permitting. In a nutshell, the America **nation** is older than the American **state,** it predates independence. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/55 "2014-05-30T21:05:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Tsk. You really need to read [_The Next American Nation,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Next_American_Nation) by Michael Lind; he considers and refutes the “idea-state” theory quite definitively. I’ll dig you up some relevant excerpts later, time permitting. In a nutshell, the America **nation** is older than the American **state,** it predates independence. _“multiculturalism, he [Lind] characterizes as an “unmitigated calamity” and a “a repellent and failed regime”. Thus, Lind opposes affirmative action and racial quotas, and identifies the elimination of them as a “nonnegotiable demand”.”_ Doesn’t seem like someone whose ideas you’d support. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/56 "2014-05-30T21:38:39Z")
I don’t care for the idea of eliminating state allegiances from the House of Representatives, but I would like to see proportional voting determine the makeup of each state’s delegation. For example, living in suburban Tennessee I have absolutely no chance of being represented by a Democrat in congress - there are only 2 Democratic house members from the whole state (with districts in Nashville and Memphis). If we got rid of congressional districts, the ratio might not change that much but at least I would feel like my vote counted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/57 "2014-05-30T21:59:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > _“multiculturalism, he [Lind] characterizes as an “unmitigated calamity” and a “a repellent and failed regime”. Thus, Lind opposes affirmative action and racial quotas, and identifies the elimination of them as a “nonnegotiable demand”.”_ > > Doesn’t seem like someone whose ideas you’d support. He wants to get rid of race-based affirmative action and replace it with color-blind class-based AA; seems like a good idea to me, helps the black kids out of the projects **and** the white kids out of the trailer parks. Like Buchanan and the paleocons he sees American national “culture” as essentially rooted in Anglo culture – but, unlike them, also sees it as a thing capable of changing out of recognition over time while remaining essentially the same, just like every other national culture. Thus, immigrants are no threat to it and if they change it, as they have many times in the past, that’s fine - so long as they ultimately assimilate. In **all** ways – he also foresees and lauds a mixed-race “Trans-American Nation.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/58 "2014-05-30T22:05:57Z")
Lind does, in fact, take a hard line on immigration – but only to the point of insisting it be limited to well-educated or high-skilled persons who can add value to the economy. He takes this position not for racial or cultural reasons but for economic and class-interest reasons – unlimited immigration drives down working Americans’ wages and favors the business interests of the Overclass. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/59 "2014-05-30T22:19:47Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I don’t care for the idea of eliminating state allegiances from the House of Representatives, but I would like to see proportional voting determine the makeup of each state’s delegation. For example, living in suburban Tennessee I have absolutely no chance of being represented by a Democrat in congress - there are only 2 Democratic house members from the whole state (with districts in Nashville and Memphis). If we got rid of congressional districts, the ratio might not change that much but at least I would feel like my vote counted. So let’s say there is proportional voting for your state’s delegation. Let’s say there are five loosely defined geographic areas - A through E. You’re from area E. Through proportional representation, none of the people elected into your state’s delegation are from area E. In fact, they are mostly from area A, on the other end of the state. Do you really think that the candidates that were elected who come from the other areas will keep your area’s interests close to heart while representing your state? Better than the candidates from E would have? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478/60 "2014-05-30T22:21:03Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I don’t care for the idea of eliminating state allegiances from the House of Representatives, but I would like to see proportional voting determine the makeup of each state’s delegation. For example, living in suburban Tennessee I have absolutely no chance of being represented by a Democrat in congress - there are only 2 Democratic house members from the whole state (with districts in Nashville and Memphis). If we got rid of congressional districts, the ratio might not change that much but at least I would feel like my vote counted. That is actually the form of PR Michael Lind proposed (and argued it can be done without constitutional amendment) in [this 1992 article](http://www.theatlantic.com/past/politics/congress/lindf.htm). > [@](#): > > What would it take to install proportional representation for members of the House of Representatives? Nothing more than an act of Congress. No constitutional amendment is necessary. Article I, Section 4 of the Constitution states, “The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.” This gives Congress the power to preempt all state electoral laws and to mandate a system of multimember districts with proportional representation for electing members of the House of Representatives. > > Because the idea of PR is to give electoral representation not only to parties or candidates that win by slight pluralities or majorities but also to second-, third-, and fourth-place winners, it requires multimember districts. The best way to adapt PR to American conditions would be to consolidate present contiguous congressional districts into multimember districts with some manageable number of members–seven, say, or nine. The larger the number elected from a multimember district, the smaller the number of voters needed to elect at least one representative to the House. > > By promoting a close correspondence between groups of voters and groups represented in Congress, PR minimizes the waste of votes that occurs under our present system. For example, the same hypothetical voting population that, divided into nine single-member districts, now returns nine Democrats, each with a slight plurality in his district, might, if organized into a nine-member district with PR, send four Democrats, three Republicans, one Libertarian, and one Conservative to Congress–WITH THE SAME VOTES CAST. By the same token, Democrats who today waste their votes in largely Republican areas might be able to elect a minority of a consolidated multimember district’s congressional delegation. Many voters who today are resigned to never electing a congressman of their party or their philosophy, simply because they happen to belong to permanent electoral minorities in their local communities, would suddenly be able to help elect one or more representatives, without changing either their residence or their views. > > Multimember districts are nothing new in the United States. Combined with both plurality elections and PR, they have long been used at the state and municipal levels. For example, from 1870 to 1980 the cumulative vote within three-member districts (similar to PR) was used to elect legislators to the Illinois Assembly. As early as 1867 Senator Charles Buckalew proposed that cumulative voting for House elections be imposed by Congress on reconstructed southern states seeking readmission to the Union; following this experiment, either cumulative voting or proportional representation (which he thought too complex for the Americans of his day to comprehend!) could be adopted nationwide. That his proposed reform got nowhere was a tragedy not only for the black, white Republican, and Populist electoral minorities in the South, who were soon effectively disenfranchised by the dominant Democrats, but for the country as a whole, which might have adopted PR by the turn of the century, as many European democracies had. > > What about the states that are so sparsely populated that they have only one congressman apiece? PR works only when districts elect multiple members–at least two or three, and preferably more than four or five. At present six states have such small populations that they have only one representative apiece (Alaska, Delaware, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont, and Wyoming). Perhaps single-member states would elect their representatives under a plurality system. Still, it seems unfair not to allow their citizens the benefits of PR. The fairest approach would be to increase the number of representatives to give these states more representatives.\* - This immediately follows a section where he argues for expanding the total membership of the HoR for completely different reasons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-redistricting-lawsuit/689478.md?page=4)