# "Florida Schools Will Teach How Slavery Brought ‘Personal Benefit’ to Black People" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2023, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304 "2023-07-20T14:46:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/101 "2023-07-21T18:42:34Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But discussing the historic realities of slavery, and the way they should be taught, and things of that nature, may well be. > > “They want to teach kids that slavery was a good thing” sounds, to me, so much like a strawman that I get suspicious and want to know the straight dope. > > Only, by saying so, I risk being accused of “discussing the merits of slavery” and sticking up for that strawman. I’m sure there are people who’ve read my posts in this thread and feel I’m defending slavery. For the record, I’m not and I don’t think you are either. But I feel this Florida program is designed to provide misleading information about slavery. Calling it false information is more debatable. And I can’t think of any good motives for doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/102 "2023-07-21T18:50:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But I feel this Florida program is designed to provide misleading information about slavery. I skimmed through the document in question and looked at many of its other standards and clarifications, and taken as a whole, it didn’t give me the impression that it was designed to provide misleading information about slavery—though it might possibly give such an impression to someone who has more expertise and/or has read it more carefully than I. Hence I’m curious about the accuracy and intent of the one bit we’ve been focusing on here in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/103 "2023-07-21T18:59:02Z")
That one bit is the personal benefit part? Can you explain how that could even happen? 1. Some small percentage of enslaved people are trained in more advance skills, rather than field labor (obviously, the field laborers and other unskilled laborers aren’t getting any benefit, right?) 2. That small percentage acquires skills 3. ??? How could those now-skilled enslaved people benefit? If the answer is, say, fewer beatings or better food from the master, that seems like a dubious, ancillary benefit. They could never benefit from the actual skills. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/104 "2023-07-21T19:01:24Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > How could those now-skilled enslaved people benefit? That’s what I want to ask the people who wrote the document. I want to know what they had in mind—and whether it was something they just pulled out of their asses, or something that’s technically true but misleading, or something that’s genuinely worth knowing about. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/105 "2023-07-21T19:03:43Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Interesting that some of the other benchmark clarifications concern indentured servitude, and include “Instruction includes the similarities and differences between serfdom and slavery”; " Instruction includes the method by which indentured servants were able to own private property, farm crops and make money, realizing the payout of property and supplies at the end of their contracts"; “Instruction includes the comparative treatment of indentured servants of European and African extraction”; and “Instruction includes the shift in attitude toward Africans as Colonial America transitioned from indentured servitude to race-based, hereditary slavery.” It sure seems like this curriculum is bending over backwards to make American slavery seem like just one part of an entire panoply of indentured systems. Clearly, in an effort to not make the white kids feel bad about the racist legacy of America, they are planning to arm them with “yeah, well, Europeans were indentured servants too!” As already noted, there is a vast chasm between that role and the status of slave. Additionally, it must be emphasized how _expressly_ and _vociferously_ racist that America has long been towards black people. They have been singled out in this country for a specific and targeted form of abuse, which is distinctly different than all of the other racism and bigotry that has marked the country’s history. This can’t be ignored. Although, when I think of skills learned by slaves, I’m reminded of Hercules Posey, an enslaved cook for George Washington. He was such a good cook that he was able to sell his food and earn money. And, with these great skills and the chance to toil for the father of the country, what did Mr. Posey do? Why, yes, he escaped to freedom. Or; there’s the letter from a slave to his former master - who begged for his return -where the freedman lets him know just how much his labors were worth > [@](#): > > Mandy says she would be afraid to go back without some proof that you were disposed to treat us justly and kindly; and we have concluded to test your sincerity by asking you to send us our wages for the time we served you. This will make us forget and forgive old scores, and rely on your justice and friendship in the future. I served you faithfully for thirty-two years, and Mandy twenty years. At $25 a month for me, and $2 a week for Mandy, our earnings would amount to $11,680. Add to this the interest for the time our wages have been kept back, and deduct what you paid for our clothing, and three doctor’s visits to me, and pulling a tooth for Mandy, and the balance will show what we are in justice entitled to. Please send the money by Adams Express, in care of V. Winters, Esq., Dayton, Ohio. [https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/letter-jourdon-anderson-freedman-writes-his-former-master#:~:text=If%20you%20fail%20to%20pay,you%20for%20generations%20without%20recompense](https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/letter-jourdon-anderson-freedman-writes-his-former-master#:~:text=If%20you%20fail%20to%20pay,you%20for%20generations%20without%20recompense). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/106 "2023-07-21T19:07:13Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > It sure seems like this curriculum is bending over backwards to make American slavery seem like just one part of an entire panoply of indentured systems. A lot depends on whether it’s the similarities or the differences that get emphasized. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/107 "2023-07-21T19:09:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I want to know what they had in mind They had in mind that their they’re of this woke indoctrination and CRT stuff and want to protect the white kids’ feelings. I mean, where have you been? Remember when Giuliani’s campaign message was Verb Noun 9/11? DeSantis is worse – his is Woke Woke Woke. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/108 "2023-07-21T19:16:01Z")
Yeah, the context isn’t exactly subtle. The quiet parts are being shouted out loud these days. Florida is nobody’s idea of a place where an open debate of ideas occurs. Remember New College? The public college that was basically the subject of a hostile takeover by the state? That wasn’t a long time ago. That was within the last year. This isn’t even a new dog whistle. This one existed well before any of us were born. It’s just a toned down version ‘slavery brought civilization/religion/enlightenment to those benighted heathens’. There’s reason people invoke Jim Crow. It’s the same tactics and strategy, updated for modern sensibilities. Just because the language isn’t explicitly racist doesn’t change any of that. It’s almost like the last decade didn’t happen. They’re really, truly not being subtle, no matter how softly the language is being couched. The dog whistles are just plain whistles now as long as you are willing to listen. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/109 "2023-07-21T19:20:21Z")
Anyone that doesn’t understand how this is just another verse in the, very old, _‘Modern day African Americans should stop complaining about slavery and be thankful we rescued their ancestors from Africa and provided them free room and board (which they didn’t even pay for so just who owes who reparations?) and full time employment!’_ is, apparently, blissfully unaware of the multi-generation attempt to rehabilitate American chattel slavery. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/110 "2023-07-21T19:23:09Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > This isn’t even a new dog whistle. This one existed well before any of us were born. It’s just a toned down version ‘slavery brought civilization/religion/enlightenment to those benighted heathens’. 🥷🏾 If I didn’t type so slow… ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/111 "2023-07-21T19:26:39Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@Moriarty](#): > > > > It sure seems like this curriculum is bending over backwards to make American slavery seem like just one part of an entire panoply of indentured systems. > > A lot depends on whether it’s the similarities or the differences that get emphasized. Well, let’s think this through. The curriculum instructs teachers to teach about a system whereby people came to the United States and did a period of unpaid labor in order to learn beneficial skills. Then, the curriculum instructs teachers to teach about the beneficial skills that slaves - who were unpaid labor - learned. It sounds to me like they are mandating a curriculum where both become different versions of the same scheme. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/112 "2023-07-21T20:00:25Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > That one bit is the personal benefit part? Can you explain how that could even happen? > > 1. Some small percentage of enslaved people are trained in more advance skills, rather than field labor (obviously, the field laborers and other unskilled laborers aren’t getting any benefit, right?) > 2. That small percentage acquires skills > 3. ??? > > How could those now-skilled enslaved people benefit? If the answer is, say, fewer beatings or better food from the master, that seems like a dubious, ancillary benefit. They could never benefit from the actual skills. Some owners allowed some slaves to keep a portion of what they earned for such skills when they used them, with the owner’s permission, for others; and a few even managed to save up enough to buy their own or another’s freedom. Here’s a couple of cites: > **[Buying One's Freedom, Emancipation of Enslaved African Americans, African...](https://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/maai/emancipation/text1/text1read.htm)** > > Primary resources--historical documents, literary texts, and works of art--thematically organized with notes and discussion questions. > **[Self-Purchase: The Price of Freedom from Slavery](https://www.ccpl.org/charleston-time-machine/self-purchase-price-freedom-slavery)** That however required the permission of the owner, who was in no way required to allow it, and who could revoke that permission (and any promises) at any time. And very few enslaved people had the chance to do this. ETA: If the idea is for the curriculum to present this as common practice that most slaves had access to, that’s entirely off the wall. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > This isn’t even a new dog whistle. This one existed well before any of us were born. It’s just a toned down version ‘slavery brought civilization/religion/enlightenment to those benighted heathens’. Yes. I think I also noted above the strong implication that people who started off in Africa would have had no useful skills that they’d learned there; and the further implication is that enslaved people born in the USA would also have learned no skills if they’d instead been born, and stayed, in Africa. People in Africa knew and could do a shitload of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/113 "2023-07-21T20:15:54Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > People in Africa knew and could do a shitload of stuff. No shit: > **[Industrial Revolution iron method ‘was taken from Jamaica by Briton’](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/jul/05/industrial-revolution-iron-method-taken-from-jamaica-briton)** > > Wrought iron process that drove UK success was appropriated from black metallurgists, records suggest ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/114 "2023-07-21T21:08:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > “They want to teach kids that slavery was a good thing” sounds, to me, so much like a strawman that I get suspicious and want to know the straight dope. Yes, it does sound like a strawman. That’s why we quoted and linked to the exact quote in the curriculum that says that. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/115 "2023-07-21T21:11:02Z")
Forget wrought iron in Jamaica, how about [steel in Tanzania](https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi385.htm) – 2,000 years ago? > But carbon steel had been made long before either Kelly or Bessemer. One of the oldest and most sophisticated methods was that of the Haya people. They’re an African tribe in what is Tanzania today. The Hayas produced high-grade carbon steel for about 2000 years. > … > The key to the Haya iron process was a high operating temperature. Eight men, seated around the base of the kiln, pumped air in with hand bellows. The air flowed through the fire in clay conduits. Then the heated air blasted into the charcoal fire itself. The result was a far hotter process than anything known in Europe before modern times. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/116 "2023-07-21T21:29:25Z")
Sure, [I know this.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-african-civilizations-so-technologically-far-behind/351215/133) But that isn’t nearly as relevant vis-a-vis African skills and European slavery as the fact that all those lofty Imperial wrought iron edifices rest directly on the backs of contemporary African skills. . ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/117 "2023-07-21T22:46:36Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > A lot depends on whether it’s the similarities or the differences that get emphasized. If you’re a teacher in Florida, and one of your kid’s parents came to class on “Meet the Teacher” night wearing a “Moms For Liberty” T-shirt, are you going to be emphasizing the similarities or the differences when you get to that unit? That’s really what this is about - provide a nice, safe, anti-woke curriculum for teachers to use who want to keep their jobs, and thus don’t want to stray too close to “indoctrinating or persuading students to a particular point of view inconsistent with the principles” given in the law, to mildly paraphrase the law in question (see section 3 of the passed law, available at [https://fda.fsu.edu/sites/g/files/upcbnu636/files/Media/Files/HB7/Chapter%202022-72%20Laws%20of%20Florida%201000.05[1].pdf](https://fda.fsu.edu/sites/g/files/upcbnu636/files/Media/Files/HB7/Chapter%202022-72%20Laws%20of%20Florida%201000.05%5B1%5D.pdf) , near the bottom of page 11). I’ll add they have a really fascinating section 4: > (4) The State Board of Education shall develop or adopt a curriculum to inspire future generations through motivating stories of American history that demonstrate important life skills and the principles of individual > freedom that enabled persons to prosper even in the most difficult > circumstances. This curriculum shall be known as “Stories of Inspiration” > and made available to schools to implement the requirements of subsection (3). I posted previously in this thread about “teaching the exception” and this is a really good example of it. This curriculum is going to be focused on those people who overcame injustice through an exclusively individualist framework. In doing so, it will distract from - if not completely paper over - the systemic issues that keep others, even those with “important life skills” who adhere to “the principles of individual freedom” from being able to prosper. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/118 "2023-07-21T23:17:58Z")
> [@Guapo](#): > > Maybe the next curriculum change will be to say rape gives women practical education in reproductive biology. Apparently some states have already enacted that into law, giving the rapee OJT training in motherhood regardless of the rapee’s age. > [@Akaj](#): > > Fuck the Florida GOP for pushing this bullshit narrative, for which the clear purpose is to protect white kids from ever having the legacy of slavery taint the God Bless America feeling they should wear proudly every day. Actually it’s to protect the God bless the Confederacy feeling. ---
**Author:** ![StraightTalk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straighttalk/32/9982_2.png) [@StraightTalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StraightTalk)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/119 "2023-07-22T01:35:33Z")
Next up from the Florida school board… It wasn’t slavery. It was a tourist visit. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304/120 "2023-07-22T01:45:29Z")
> [@StraightTalk](#): > > Next up from the Florida school board… It wasn’t slavery. It was a tourist visit Wasn’t there some public figure who, a few years ago, expressed a belief that there was a positive aspect to the fact that slaves were actually getting free transportation to North America? I thought that there was some such controversy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-schools-will-teach-how-slavery-brought-personal-benefit-to-black-people/987304.md?page=7)