# Florida's Race-based Academic Standards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 18, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110 "2012-10-18T10:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/21 "2012-10-18T20:17:39Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > How do you count a student who’s, say, half Asian and half African American?\* I guess it depends on how good a student he is, and which ethnic group’s numbers you need to boost. > \*For that matter, why do we say “African American” but not “Asian American”? Isn’t that inconsistent? Hell yes it’s inconsitant. I’ve been peeved all my life that I can’t count myself as a Native American American. Instead I have to label myself as “Whitey” :rolleyes:. I was born in this country thusly I’m native to it. ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/22 "2012-10-18T20:27:06Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > \*For that matter, why do we say “African American” but not “Asian American”? Isn’t that inconsistent? Because African-American culture is a very different beast from African culture, so clarification is necessary. ‘Asian’ is much less ambiguous. And I have heard people say ‘Asian American’. On edit - Drunky Smurf, I like to call myself Scandinavian American. 😛 > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I have to wonder… is this the most useful way for the school system to slice and dice the student population? Should that population be sliced and diced at all? How about by school district? We seem to be obsessed with race in the US. That is the real question. I’d like to see how literacy levels break down by family income level, for starters. If race really is the best way to make that distinction, well, that’s awkward. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/23 "2012-10-18T20:36:18Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Not exactly. The goal isn’t for any one individual student. It’s a percentage for the school district as a whole to hit. So the potential problem is that the reverse is true. If you’re smart and black, there’s a good chance you’ll be ignored while administration spends time, money and resources trying to advance those who aren’t as academically inclined in order to hit their target. Oh. Right. **-VT** , _slow, white and lazy_ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/24 "2012-10-18T20:37:51Z")
I thought the idea of dividing people up by race was invalid because “race” is an arbitrary and racist distinction. Therefore the notion that you should be able to predict anything about a group based on its racial composition was wrong. Same thing here, right? There is no reason in the world to believe that any group is going to do any different on a test, based on their race. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/25 "2012-10-18T20:45:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought the idea of dividing people up by race was invalid because “race” is an arbitrary and racist distinction. Therefore the notion that you should be able to predict anything about a group based on its racial composition was wrong. > > Same thing here, right? There is no reason in the world to believe that any group is going to do any different on a test, based on their race. Yep, same thing. Which is to say that your second statement is as asinine and full of straw as your first. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/26 "2012-10-18T21:20:04Z")
So you believe there is such a thing as race, and Florida can reasonably expect that black students as a whole will do less well in school than Asians or whites, and can make that prediction purely on their racial classification? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/27 "2012-10-18T21:27:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought the idea of dividing people up by race was invalid because “race” is an arbitrary and racist distinction. Therefore the notion that you should be able to predict anything about a group based on its racial composition was wrong. No, the argument is and always has been that race is not a genetic or biological construct; it is, however, a perfectly valid social construct and is being addressed as such by everyone (else) in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/28 "2012-10-18T21:44:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you believe there is such a thing as race, and Florida can reasonably expect that black students as a whole will do less well in school than Asians or whites, and can make that prediction purely on their racial classification? The problem with your needless riling is that you’re either misstating or misunderstanding the problem. It’s not that black will do worse, it’s that they have done worse. And given that they’re starting year 1 (this year) well behind others, where should a bar be set for them that’s both challenging, yet achievable? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/29 "2012-10-18T22:25:14Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > The problem with your needless riling is that you’re either misstating or misunderstanding the problem. > > It’s not that black will do worse, it’s that they have done worse. And given that they’re starting year 1 (this year) well behind others, where should a bar be set for them that’s both challenging, yet achievable? That’s how I see it: it’s an increment. You can’t expect Asians to merely go from 88% to 90% in X years and expect blacks to go from 38% to 74% in the same period. Hopefully the overall goal (which seems hidden here) is to step every one as close to 100% as is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/30 "2012-10-18T23:09:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you believe there is such a thing as race, and Florida can reasonably expect that black students as a whole will do less well in school than Asians or whites, and can make that prediction purely on their racial classification? Not even the bleedingest liberal heart— and I don’t possess one that bloody— will deny that when grouped accordingly, “Asians” historically test better than “Whites” who test better than “Blacks.” The disagreements are over the cause of that disparity. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/31 "2012-10-18T23:20:25Z")
We had similar district goals when I was a teacher in Texas, in pursuit of “closing the achievement gap” which is PC terminology for helping minority students (Hispanics and blacks, usually) achieve at the same or better levels as white and Asian students. I remember that in one year, our goal was 99% pass rate in science for white students, because the previous year was 97% or something like that. But for black students it was 85% (I think that was the lowest they were willing to accept for any sub-population). [warning: these are my recollections and probably somewhat imprecise values] ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/32 "2012-10-19T01:07:44Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Not even the bleedingest liberal heart— and I don’t possess one that bloody— will deny that when grouped accordingly, “Asians” historically test better than “Whites” who test better than “Blacks.” The disagreements are over the cause of that disparity. Indeed, none, or at least very few, of us will even deny there probably is some genetic causation there. It’s just so tiny that it’s destructive to consider it when the other disparities are so huge that it is they that really matter and need to be focussed on. **Shodan** , if you doubt this then look at men V women. Only extremists will claim they are the same mentally. Everyone from our nice liberal team where we don’t murder or attack people for differences, take fun drugs, exercise intelligent economic theory, and generally have a much nicer life than conservatives is quite happy for differences to arise there and never is looking for equal genetic attainment. What we want is appropriate attainment and also a way of teaching things appropriate to each sex. It’s the same for race you know. It’s a lot more complex there for various reasons, but eventually, yeah, chances are, one “race” **will** do better than an other race, and you know what - chances are it will be “orientals” on top and “blacks” on the bottom, if you make such a primitive way of separating things. But it might not be. And that test will necessarily be biased towards white-majority society. And there will be far more differentiation within the “race” than between races. Although maybe we’ll be so enlightened by then races aren’t being measured. It’s entirely irrelevant EVENTAULLY too, cause computers will be doing everything for us. In other words, you are right there are some people who will not accept racial reality. But it’s a tiny number. Most of us understand exactly what’s going on, but we are better than you. You are on the wrong side of history, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/33 "2012-10-19T01:36:04Z")
I’d like to point out, again, that the standards are not for individuals, but for the population as a whole. It’s not like a black student would pass the test with a score of 85 and the white kid would fail. If you went to the board and said “So, what, you think black people can’t read?!” they’d say “No…we think only 26% of black students can’t read.” Each student, regardless of race, would take the same test to the same standard. It’s just that Florida isn’t afraid to say out loud that they expect blacks and Hispanics to fail more often. > [@Smeghead](#): > > No, the argument is and always has been that race is not a genetic or biological construct; it is, however, a perfectly valid social construct and is being addressed as such by everyone (else) in this thread. :smack: Dudes… You’re [del]walking into[/del] already in his trap. Can’t you smell the sarcasm enveloping you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/34 "2012-10-19T02:40:49Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Not even the bleedingest liberal heart— and I don’t possess one that bloody— will deny that when grouped accordingly, “Asians” historically test better than “Whites” who test better than “Blacks.” The disagreements are over the cause of that disparity. And what do you think the cause is? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/35 "2012-10-19T04:14:36Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > It doesn’t seem racist to me. > > Star-belly Sneetches score 80% on a reading test. > > Plain-belly Sneetches score 60%. > > We need to improve that. > > Next year, we would like the Star-belly Sneetches to score 85%, and the Plain-belly Sneetches to score 70%. > > It’s unraslistic to expect both groups to score 85%. They’re starting from different levels of ability. Just call Mr. McBean. He’ll get those numbers leveled off in no time. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/36 "2012-10-19T05:35:07Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > \*For that matter, why do we say “African American” but not “Asian American”? Isn’t that inconsistent? [Asian American Recovery Service](http://www.aars.org/) [Asian American Theater Company](http://www.asianamericantheater.org/) [Center for Asian American Media](http://caamedia.org/) [Asian American Center for Advancing Justice](http://www.advancingjustice.org/) [Asian American Studies Program at Berkeley](http://ethnicstudies.berkeley.edu/programs/aas.php) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/37 "2012-10-19T07:23:44Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > How do you count a student who’s, say, half Asian and half African American?\* I guess it depends on how good a student he is, and which ethnic group’s numbers you need to boost. I’ve known Black Hispanics who merrily applied for any fellowship from either group they could get a form for. They reckoned so long as nobody expected them to speak Ebonics they were cool, but one of them joked that sometimes it got hard to keep track of which one he was supposed to be for a given interview or essay. I too find it strange to divide things by race (without even getting into the race-as-color vs race-as-culture thing). It seems to me that things such as economic status or length of stay in country would be more relevant: a 3rd-generation Cuban American shouldn’t have special problems reading English, but someone off the boat and from a non-English-speaking country will, regardless of either one’s color. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/38 "2012-10-19T09:53:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And what do you think the cause is? That’s an unanswerable question. Certainly if social science has been unable to answer that question in its years of existence, you couldn’t expect a commoner on message board to answer it (no offense, **Vinyl Turnip** ). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/39 "2012-10-19T10:36:22Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I too find it strange to divide things by race (without even getting into the race-as-color vs race-as-culture thing). It seems to me that things such as economic status or length of stay in country would be more relevant: a 3rd-generation Cuban American shouldn’t have special problems reading English, but someone off the boat and from a non-English-speaking country will, regardless of either one’s color. NCLB tracks all of those. There are like seven sub-pops: white, black, Hispanic, Asian, but then also socio-economically disadvantaged, limited-English proficiency, and possibly a couple others that I can’t remember. You have to hit the goals in each and every target. So if a poor Hispanic kid with limited English proficiency does poorly, it hits you three times. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110/40 "2012-10-19T11:49:43Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > That’s an unanswerable question. Certainly if social science has been unable to answer that question in its years of existence, you couldn’t expect a commoner on message board to answer it (no offense, **Vinyl Turnip** ). None taken. It’s a hijack that’s been hashed over in dozens of other threads by people much smarter than I, and my own guess (that genetics play a smaller role compared to cultural and environmental factors) isn’t worth much. But it was requested, so there it is. If **Shodan** or **Damuri Ajashi** or anyone else has compelling evidence to the contrary, we can always debate that. In another thread. Again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-race-based-academic-standards/638110.md?page=3)