# Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560 "2012-03-22T23:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/201 "2012-03-25T17:43:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Physical aggressor? Can you point to that circumstantial evidence? > > You do realize that following someone and asking him what he’s doing here is not illegal, right? But murder is. And there is far more circumstancial evidence incriminating Zimmerman as the violent aggressor than there is for Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/202 "2012-03-25T17:45:55Z")
I’ll just [leave this here](http://i.imgur.com/0ShZ0.jpg)…think it points out the problem pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/203 "2012-03-25T17:48:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But murder is. And there is far more circumstancial evidence incriminating Zimmerman as the violent aggressor than there is for Martin. Can you point me to some? So far I haven’t seen any. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/204 "2012-03-25T17:49:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you point me to some? So far I haven’t seen any. There are none so blind as those who will not see. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/205 "2012-03-25T17:49:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > There are none so blind as those who will not see. It’s hard to see something that hasn’t been presented. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/206 "2012-03-25T18:05:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s hard to see something that hasn’t been presented. We have the motive, which is bigotry, and the body, which is dead. But I will indulge you one more time. From the 911 call and the girlfriend’s account we know: 1. Zimmerman described Martin as a “fucking coon” and said “These guys always get away”. 2 points against Zimmerman. 2. Zimmerman, in possession of a gun, left his car to pursue Martin. 1 point against Zimmerman. 3. Martin tried to elude Zimmerman. 4. Zimmerman catches up to Martin, who says “Why are you following me?” 5. Zimmerman says, “What are you doing here?”, followed by a scuffle and screaming (identified as Martin by his mother). 1 point against Zimmerman. 6. Zimmerman shoots Martin. 1 point against Zimmerman. Everything points to Zimmerman. Where in this scenario do you find any circumstantial evidence that Martin might have assaulted Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/207 "2012-03-25T18:13:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > We have the motive, which is bigotry, and the body, which is dead. Even if I stipulate bigotry, neither are in any way evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation. > [@](#): > > [INDENT]1. Zimmerman described Martin as a “fucking coon” and said “These guys always get away”. 2 points against Zimmerman. As Bricker pointed out, the slur is extremely debatable, and even if it occurred, is not in any way evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation. > [@](#): > > 1. Zimmerman, in possession of a gun, left his car to pursue Martin. 1 point against Zimmerman. not in any way evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation. > [@](#): > > 1. Martin tried to elude Zimmerman. not in any way evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation. > [@](#): > > 1. Zimmerman catches up to Martin, who says “Why are you following me?” > > 2. Zimmerman says, “What are you doing here?”, followed by a scuffle and screaming (identified as Martin by his mother). 1 point against Zimmerman. Please link to “identified as Martin by his mother”. Because I have a link that says that the father said the screaming on 911 tapes was not his son. And anyway - how is the above evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation. Because he said “What are you doing here”? > [@](#): > > 1. Zimmerman shoots Martin. 1 point against Zimmerman. not in any way evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation. So - do you have any evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/208 "2012-03-25T18:18:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > We have the motive, which is bigotry, and the body, which is dead. > > But I will indulge you one more time. > > From the 911 call and the girlfriend’s account we know: > > 1. Zimmerman described Martin as a “fucking coon” and said “These guys always get away”. 2 points against Zimmerman. > > 2. Zimmerman, in possession of a gun, left his car to pursue Martin. 1 point against Zimmerman. > > 3. Martin tried to elude Zimmerman. > > 4. Zimmerman catches up to Martin, who says “Why are you following me?” > > 5. Zimmerman says, “What are you doing here?”, followed by a scuffle and screaming (identified as Martin by his mother). 1 point against Zimmerman. > > 6. Zimmerman shoots Martin. 1 point against Zimmerman. > > Everything points to Zimmerman. Where in this scenario do you find any circumstantial evidence that Martin might have assaulted Zimmerman? 1,2 and 4 are irrelevant, and in the case of the racial slur, false. 3 is dubious, given the eyewitness account of Martin on top of Zimmerman. All 5 shows is that there was a fight, not who instigated it. 6 is not in doubt. It has no bearing on who started the fight. So no, you have almost no evidence that Zimmerman started the fight. The only evidence that Martin started the fight is Zimmerman’s statement, which is understandably dubious, but unless it can be disproved, he’s not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/209 "2012-03-25T18:40:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Even granting all that, there is no evidence whatsoever who initiated the physical confrontation. Yes, there is. That’s what the two phones call are, evidence. You can say the evidence is inconclusive. You can’t say there is no evidence. And I am still wondering why you seem so equally certain that the kid assaulted the guy as **Fear Itself** is sure it happened the other way around. And I still don’t get why you don’t understand that getting out of the car after being told not to tells us something about the guy’s character. It’s not evidence in and of itself, but it very well supports the story given from the kid’s side. Just like, if the kid had been some sort of gangsta wannabe, it would have supported the old(er) man’s story. As far as I know, establishing the character of the perpetrator has not been eliminated from what is allowed to be considered. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/210 "2012-03-25T18:52:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Physical aggressor? Can you point to that circumstantial evidence? > > You do realize that following someone and asking him what he’s doing here is not illegal, right? And doesn’t make you an “aggressor”? In that an “aggressor” is someone who initiates, yes, those actions do in fact make one an aggressor. Perhaps you are using a different meaning for “aggressor”, one of which I am unaware. If so, please feel free to share it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/211 "2012-03-25T18:54:21Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In many States I don’t actually think it’d be a crime for Garcia to have been chasing someone down to forcibly detain them under suspicion that the person had committed a crime. In cases of felony almost all 50 States allow me as a citizen to forcibly detain (“arrest”) someone, misdemeanors it’s more of a variable thing and I’d advise people look into local law. Only law enforcement can detain people on suspicion that they have committed a crime. Civilians can detain people only if they actually witness a crime, absent special circumstances (like shopkeeper’s privilege.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/212 "2012-03-25T18:58:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > > But murder is. And there is far more circumstancial evidence incriminating Zimmerman as the violent aggressor than there is for Martin. > > Can you point me to some? So far I haven’t seen any. Well, there’s the dead body with a bullet hole in it. And there’s Zimmerman standing there with a smoking gun in his hand, saying he just shot that guy. Hey, Shaggy, I think we found a clue. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/213 "2012-03-25T19:03:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Only law enforcement can detain people on suspicion that they have committed a crime. Civilians can detain people only if they actually witness a crime, absent special circumstances (like shopkeeper’s privilege.) That depends. Some states do allow for a citizen’s arrest when a person has reasonable knowledge that a person committed a crime, even if they didn’t witness the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/214 "2012-03-25T19:04:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, there is. That’s what the two phones call are, evidence. You can say the evidence is inconclusive. You can’t say there is no evidence. There is all kinds of evidence. There is just no evidence that relates to who started the physical confrontation. > [@](#): > > And I am still wondering why you seem so equally certain that the kid assaulted the guy as **Fear Itself** is sure it happened the other way around. I am not. Where did I say I was? > [@](#): > > And I still don’t get why you don’t understand that getting out of the car after being told not to tells us something about the guy’s character. Um, he wasn’t “told not to”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/215 "2012-03-25T19:06:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, there’s the dead body with a bullet hole in it. And there’s Zimmerman standing there with a smoking gun in his hand, saying he just shot that guy. That’s not evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Who the aggressor was is determined by how the fight starts, not by how it ends. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/216 "2012-03-25T19:14:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s not evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Who the aggressor was is determined by how the fight starts, not by how it ends. No, it is not. That would be evidence of assault, not aggression. The sum of Zimmerman’s actions would lead a reasonable man to conclude that he was the aggressor in the confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/217 "2012-03-25T19:45:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, it is not. That would be evidence of assault, not aggression. The sum of Zimmerman’s actions would lead a reasonable man to conclude that he was the aggressor in the confrontation. If you replace “conclude” by “fantasize” and “reasonable” by “biased”, I’d agree. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/218 "2012-03-25T19:53:01Z")
Zimmerman, who is not a police officer, was armed and following Martin. Zimmerman had no need to leave his vehicle or to follow Martin. Zimmerman leaves his vehicle with his weapon. Zimmerman is stalking Martin and Martin knows it. Worst case scenario: Martin lays for Zimmerman and attacks him from behind. Martin is acting in self defense. Zimmerman’s use of his weapon is pre-meditated murder because Zimmerman brought the weapon to the situation that he created which then resulted in Martin’s death. Crane ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/219 "2012-03-25T20:01:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … Because I have a link that says that the father said the screaming on 911 tapes was not his son… Which, in your haste, you have neglected to provide. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/220 "2012-03-25T20:19:10Z")
If someone hasn’t already used this law to commit murder, they will. Get a permit to carry. Get into some altercation with the target (helps if they have a temper problem). Provoke. Let him take a swing at you. Even better, let them connect, a fat lip is better than five to fifteen. Blow away their shit. Now, I’m totally about the peace, love and kittens. And if I can think of this scenario, somebody else already has. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=12)