# Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560 "2012-03-22T23:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/261 "2012-03-26T01:31:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Fortunately, It isn’t what you pine for, and probably even less likely now. In case you didn’t notice, a lot of people are upset about this case. With any luck, this will turn the tide on the pro-gun lobby, and the Kochs and Scaifes of this country will get shouted down under a flurry of tighter gun control laws. Even Jeb Bush has said that the police should charge Zimmerman and that the law doesn’t protect him. It may turn the tide but not due to any rational reasoning. The efforts should be directed towards the police department and the prosecutions office. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/262 "2012-03-26T01:33:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > [http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/Chapter776/All](http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/Chapter776/All) > > As I posted on the previous page the law is NOT written that way, you may want to review it. Your link, 776.041, section 2(a). > [@](#): > > The who through the first punch started it rule may work with your brother but it is not how the law works. “Threw”. Up to the punch (if it was his, for which we have no evidence), Zimmerman has done nothing illegal. Following someone is not illegal. Asking someone a question is not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/263 "2012-03-26T01:33:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And yet Martin was sitting on top of Zimmerman beating him bloody, with Zimmerman yelling for help and not getting any. If he didn’t want to get beat up I guess he shouldn’t have gone around pointing his gun at people. And if you don’t want to go to prison, you shouldn’t go around shooting people. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/264 "2012-03-26T01:34:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Fortunately, It isn’t what you pine for, and probably even less likely now. In case you didn’t notice, a lot of people are upset about this case. With any luck, this will turn the tide on the pro-gun lobby, and the Kochs and Scaifes of this country will get shouted down under a flurry of tighter gun control laws. Gun-grabbing fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/265 "2012-03-26T01:35:22Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > He chased a kid a hundred pounds smaller than him down in the dark and made the kid scared for his life. That’s not starting anything? There is nothing illegal in following someone, whether in the dark, or in the light. There is also nothing illegal in asking someone questions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/266 "2012-03-26T01:42:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is nothing illegal in following someone, whether in the dark, or in the light. There is also nothing illegal in asking someone questions. You didn’t answer my question. Did Martin, or did he not, fear for his safety as a direct result of Zimmerman’s aggressive actions? Instead of murdering a child, why didn’t Zimmerman just call the cops if he thought a bag of skittles was so scary? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/267 "2012-03-26T01:44:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is nothing illegal in following someone, whether in the dark, or in the light. There is also nothing illegal in asking someone questions. It doesn’t have to be illegal to justify self-defense but there you are wrong too, it is harassment. I would challenge you to go follow around female joggers at night as a hobby. A “reasonable and prudent” person would have believed himself to be in immediate danger if they were being stalked at night, that is the standard that needed to be met for the use of force. Why do you think that a “reasonable and prudent” person wouldn’t view a massively physically larger man following you around wasn’t a threat or an aggressive act? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/268 "2012-03-26T01:45:55Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You didn’t answer my question. Did Martin, or did he not, fear for his safety as a direct result of Zimmerman’s aggressive actions? Leading question. Remove “aggressive” and I will answer. > [@](#): > > Instead of murdering a child, why didn’t Zimmerman just call the cops if he thought a bag of skittles was so scary? “murdering” - no, not if Zimmerman is legally in the clear. “bag of skittles” - do you think Zimmerman was psychic? I have seen no mention of that. Link? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/269 "2012-03-26T01:48:55Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It doesn’t have to be illegal to justify self-defense but there you are wrong too, it is harassment. Link to the law please. > [@](#): > > A “reasonable and prudent” person would have believed himself to be in immediate danger if they were being stalked at night, that is the standard that needed to be met for the use of force. > > Why do you think that a “reasonable and prudent” person wouldn’t view a massively physically larger man following you around wasn’t a threat or an aggressive act? 6’3" Martin vs. 5’9" Zimmerman. Anyway - yes, as I said before, it is possible Martin felt threatened. But as he was pummeling Zimmerman bloody while sitting on him, it is possible that Zimmerman felt threatened, to the point of fear for his life, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/270 "2012-03-26T01:50:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your link, 776.041, section 2(a). > “Threw”. Up to the punch (if it was his, for which we have no evidence), Zimmerman has done nothing illegal. Following someone is not illegal. Asking someone a question is not illegal. Doesn’t need to be illegal to be construed as aggressive enough to negate his self defense claim. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/271 "2012-03-26T01:55:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Doesn’t need to be illegal to be construed as aggressive enough to negate his self defense claim. Maybe not, although I doubt any reasonable jury will see it this way. But even so: 776.041, section 2(a). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/272 "2012-03-26T01:56:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Maybe not, although I doubt any reasonable jury will see it this way. I couldn’t disagree more. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/273 "2012-03-26T01:57:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Link to the law please. > 6’3" Martin vs. 5’9" Zimmerman. > > Anyway - yes, as I said before, it is possible Martin felt threatened. But as he was pummeling Zimmerman bloody while sitting on him, it is possible that Zimmerman felt threatened, to the point of fear for his life, as well. Go look at the act, as the aggressor Zimmerman is not afforded the right to use deadly force. Just so you know, that eye witness account isn’t being portrayed as very reliable, and eye witness accounts are about the lowest form of evidence that exists. Despite the dream worlds of TV cop shows Circumstantial evidence is better than eye witness accounts. He had a bloody nose and some grass in his hair, that is not consistent with someone who was being beat in a way that put his life at risk. But even if it had, and his life was at risk by being the aggressor he is not afforded the legal protections. So although he may have saved his own life, he did not have the legal use of deadly force because he initiated the entire episode. Thus he may be alive but guilty of murder. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/274 "2012-03-26T01:58:36Z")
Have we at least come to an agreement that this situation, whether it turns out to be right or wrong, does not implicate Florida’s SYG law in any way? Second, can we agree that if there is someone suspicious in your neighborhood, that you have a right to at least walk up and ask what is going on? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/275 "2012-03-26T02:00:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Doesn’t need to be illegal to be construed as aggressive enough to negate his self defense claim. Someone walking up to you and asking what you are doing, without something more, cannot possibly put one in fear of death or serious bodily injury. If that were the case, I could have greased the stock boy at Target today. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/276 "2012-03-26T02:01:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > He had a bloody nose and some grass in his hair, that is not consistent with someone who was being beat in a way that put his life at risk. For that matter, because of the shoddy police work, we don’t even know whose blood it is. Could have gotten on him from Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/277 "2012-03-26T02:01:51Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Go look at the act, as the aggressor Zimmerman is not afforded the right to use deadly force. Following someone is not “aggressor”. Asking someone questions is not “aggressor”. > [@](#): > > Just so you know, that eye witness account isn’t being portrayed as very reliable, and eye witness accounts are about the lowest form of evidence that exists. That’s what exists. To oppose that, there is no evidence whatsoever that I am aware of that would indicate that Zimmerman physically assaulted Martin - until the shot. > [@](#): > > But even if it had, and his life was at risk by being the aggressor he is not afforded the legal protections. > > So although he may have saved his own life, he did not have the legal use of deadly force because he initiated the entire episode. The Florida law disagrees. 776.041, section 2(a). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/278 "2012-03-26T02:03:21Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Someone walking up to you and asking what you are doing, without something more, cannot possibly put one in fear of death or serious bodily injury. If that were the case, I could have greased the stock boy at Target today. Unless you are in the habit of chasing stock boys through the rain in the dark, I find that a pretty weak analogy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/279 "2012-03-26T02:04:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Leading question. Remove “aggressive” and I will answer. I will not remove aggressive. A reasonable person would consider stalking someone in the middle of the night like a mugger to be aggressive. Are you so fucking ignorant or disingenuous that you feel Zimmerman wasn’t acting like a mugger? > [@](#): > > “murdering” - no, not if Zimmerman is legally in the clear. “bag of skittles” - do you think Zimmerman was psychic? I have seen no mention of that. Link? He took a child’s life. He followed that kid around like a mugger, he pulled the trigger, he called that child a racist slur. He’s a murderer. He has an innocent’s blood all over his hands. Again why didn’t he just call the cops? Why did he end an innocent child’s life instead of calling the cops to voice his suspicions? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/280 "2012-03-26T02:06:01Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I will not remove aggressive. A reasonable person would consider stalking someone in the middle of the night like a mugger to be aggressive. I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > Are you so fucking ignorant or disingenuous that you feel Zimmerman wasn’t acting like a mugger? Muggers very rarely follow you in an SUV. > [@](#): > > He took a child’s life. He followed that kid around like a mugger, he pulled the trigger, he called that child a racist slur. He’s a murderer. All of this conjectures with no basis in reality. > [@](#): > > Again why didn’t he just call the cops? Why did he end an innocent child’s life instead of calling the cops to voice his suspicions? You are aware he was on the phone with 911 for quite a while there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=15)