# Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560 "2012-03-22T23:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/281 "2012-03-26T02:06:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Anyway - yes, as I said before, it is possible Martin felt threatened. But **as he was pummeling Zimmerman bloody while sitting on him** , it is possible that Zimmerman felt threatened, to the point of fear for his life, as well. You keep saying this. It’s not true. It certainly appears that there was a scuffle, but you are doing exactly what you are accusing everyone else of doing: rushing to rather weakly supported conclusions. The supposed eyewitness and Zimmerman claim that Martin was beating him up. As far as I can tell, there’s no other evidence that Zimmerman was injured; although his attorney claims he had a broken nose and severe lacerations to the back of his head, he did not seek medical attention. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/282 "2012-03-26T02:06:38Z")
It appears to me that **Terr** is right about what the law says. As the law is written, I can, through my own aggression, provoke violence against myself–and legally kill the person I was aggressive against if I reasonably believe their reaction to me may kill me or grievously harm me bodily. I can’t figure out why anyone would pass a law like that, but it is right there, written down. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/283 "2012-03-26T02:07:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You keep saying this. It’s not true. It certainly appears that there was a scuffle, but you are doing exactly what you are accusing everyone else of doing: rushing to rather weakly supported conclusions. That was the eyewitness report. > [@](#): > > The supposed eyewitness and Zimmerman claim that Martin was beating him up. As far as I can tell, there’s no other evidence that Zimmerman was injured; The initial police report shows he had a gash on the back of his head and bloody nose. I am not aware of any report showing any injuries to Martin except the shot. I am sure that will eventually come out at the trial if there is one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/284 "2012-03-26T02:10:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The Florida law disagrees. 776.041, section 2(a). If the law disagrees then it is a bad law. Why should an innocent child be dead when Zimmerman could have just call the cops? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/285 "2012-03-26T02:12:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Unless you are in the habit of chasing stock boys through the rain in the dark, I find that a pretty weak analogy. But surely you agree that a neighborhood watch captain can follow someone who looks suspicious and ask questions without being considered an aggressor? Again, I’m not saying that’s what happened here. Maybe Zimmerman did provoke him. I don’t know. But the act of approaching someone and saying “What are you doing here?” could certainly not be a reason to use force. That is just basic human interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/286 "2012-03-26T02:13:11Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If the law disagrees then it is a bad law. Why should an innocent child be dead when Zimmerman could have just call the cops? Zimmerman did call the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/287 "2012-03-26T02:15:51Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Why should an innocent child be dead when Zimmerman could have just call the cops? Because there is nothing better than a cold stiff and a warm gun. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/288 "2012-03-26T02:18:05Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It appears to me that **Terr** is right about what the law says. As the law is written, I can, through my own aggression, provoke violence against myself–and legally kill the person I was aggressive against if I reasonably believe their reaction to me may kill me or grievously harm me bodily. > > I can’t figure out why anyone would pass a law like that, but it is right there, written down. It doesn’t work like that. There is a an exception at common law to the doctrine of self defense generally, which applies here as well: one who initiates a violent confrontation cannot claim “self defense” if the other party escalates the confrontation and the initial aggressor kills him. Allen v. Oklahoma, 871 P.2d 79 (applying a statutory “stand your ground” provision very similar to the Florida law at issue: > [@](#): > > If a person by provocative behavior initiates a confrontation, even with no intention of killing the other person, she loses the right of self-defense. Here, even assuming Appellant did not intend to provoke an argument when she pursued the decedent to the police station, she re-initiated the encounter by her actions. She knew the decedent was upset, yet she pursued her anyway, knowing the possibility of a confrontation was strong. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/289 "2012-03-26T02:18:12Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If the law disagrees then it is a bad law. Why should an innocent child be dead when Zimmerman could have just call the cops? Is he not allowed to ask a question to see if the cops are even necessary? What is he going to tell them? That there is a guy walking down the street? Has society become so fearful that you can’t approach your fellow man and engage in a conversation without it being considered threatening? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/290 "2012-03-26T02:19:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t think so. > Muggers very rarely follow you in an SUV. Oh so how many people follow children they don’t know around in SUVs and then aggressively approach them with wholesome intentions? Maybe he wasn’t acting like a mugger, maybe he was acting like a sick pedophile. > [@](#): > > You are aware he was on the phone with 911 for quite a while there? So the police told him to go shoot the kid? Or did he decided to act like a thug all by himself? Zimmerman should have called the cops and kept his distance. Instead he acted like a thug and shot an innocent kid. His parents should go to their grave knowing what failures and rotten people they are for inflicting Zimmerman on the world. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/291 "2012-03-26T02:21:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Is he not allowed to ask a question to see if the cops are even necessary? What is he going to tell them? That there is a guy walking down the street? > > Has society become so fearful that you can’t approach your fellow man and engage in a conversation without it being considered threatening? As **Terr** notes, he did call the cops. Apparently, society has become so fearful that you can’t see your fellow man walking down the street without assuming he’s up to no good and shooting him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/292 "2012-03-26T02:27:09Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Is he not allowed to ask a question to see if the cops are even necessary? What is he going to tell them? That there is a guy walking down the street? Good point. Zimmerman didn’t even have any reason to be suspicious. Neither the cops, nor Zimmerman should have been involved. Martin should have been left to go see his girlfriend in peace. What did he do that is so suspicious? > [@](#): > > Has society become so fearful that you can’t approach your fellow man and engage in a conversation without it being considered threatening? But he didn’t approach his fellow man. He called his fellow man a slur and then stalked his fellow man through the night. When his fellow man attempted to engage him in a conversation (“why are you following me?”) he ignored his fellow man and started barking questions. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/293 "2012-03-26T02:30:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > As **Terr** notes, he did call the cops. Apparently, society has become so fearful that you can’t see your fellow man walking down the street without assuming he’s up to no good and shooting him. I would agree if I knew that Zimmerman had a racist or other unreasonable motive for following Martin down the street. I don’t know enough information and I don’t think that even the police have enough information at this point. It is irresponsible for Obama, Jeb Bush, and Santorum to be deciding this case in the media when the Black Panthers have put a bounty on Zimmerman’s head. What I disagree with is some of the thinking in this thread that the Florida SYG law has caused the Wild West to come back or somehow legalized summary execution. My only point has been that following someone down the road does not make you an aggressor. If I approach someone to ask what they are doing, their legitimate responses can be to tell me, not tell me, or tell me to mind my own fucking business. Violence is not an acceptable result. And if that violence makes me reasonably fear my death or serious bodily injury, then I can kill that person. That is a plausible (but not definite) scenario that happened here. Again, I’m not saying that’s what happened, but until there is more, I can’t join the chorus shouting for Zimmerman’s head on a pike. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/294 "2012-03-26T02:32:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Good point. Zimmerman didn’t even have any reason to be suspicious. Neither the cops, nor Zimmerman should have been involved. Martin should have been left to go see his girlfriend in peace. > > What did he do that is so suspicious? > > But he didn’t approach his fellow man. He called his fellow man a slur and then stalked his fellow man through the night. When his fellow man attempted to engage him in a conversation (“why are you following me?”) he ignored his fellow man and started barking questions. If the evidence backs all of that, then I will agree. If Zimmerman had no reason for suspicion, barked a racial slur, Martin was simply visiting his girlfriend, and did not physically attack Zimmerman when approached, then there should be a charge here. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/295 "2012-03-26T02:40:36Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > It is irresponsible for Obama, Jeb Bush, and Santorum to be deciding this case in the media when the Black Panthers have put a bounty on Zimmerman’s head. In what way did Obama decide this case? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/296 "2012-03-26T02:44:41Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > My only point has been that following someone down the road does not make you an aggressor. If I approach someone to ask what they are doing, their legitimate responses can be to tell me, not tell me, or tell me to mind my own fucking business. Violence is not an acceptable result. And if that violence makes me reasonably fear my death or serious bodily injury, then I can kill that person. That is a plausible (but not definite) scenario that happened here. It’s the manor in which he approached him. There’s a clear line of testimony that Martin felt Zimmerman’s behavior was threatening. Martin clearly wasn’t an aggressor for the simple reason he tried to flee the threatening individual. However Zimmerman kept after him. If some stranger, 100 pounds larger, is following you in the middle of the night for no good reason wouldn’t you find that threatening? Martin had a right to defend himself from the perceived danger. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/297 "2012-03-26T02:55:34Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If some stranger, 100 pounds larger, is following you in the middle of the night for no good reason wouldn’t you find that threatening? Martin had a right to defend himself from the perceived danger. I would be concerned, but it hasn’t risen to the level where I could turn around a throw a punch, absent any other factors. I can’t imagine a world where just approaching someone puts them in enough fear to resort to violence. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/298 "2012-03-26T02:59:11Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Has society become so fearful that you can’t approach your fellow man and engage in a conversation without it being considered threatening? Martin asked a very reasonable question: “why are you following me?” Zimmerman refused to answer, instead asking Martin what he was doing there. Then a scuffle occurred. Maybe Martin went berserk, while on the phone with his girlfriend, and attacked Zimmerman. Or maybe Martin backed away a little and looked like he was going to run away from the creep that had been following him and refused to explain why. Maybe Martin saw the gun and Zimmerman could tell he was going to run. Zimmerman couldn’t let him run. Assholes like him always get away; that is why Zimmerman was following him in the first place. That is why Zimmerman said that Martin ran away from him earlier and followed even though the cops said they didn’t need him to. So perhaps it is slightly more likely that Zimmerman grabbed Martin to hold him until the cops arrived. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/299 "2012-03-26T03:03:25Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I would be concerned, but it hasn’t risen to the level where I could turn around a throw a punch, absent any other factors. I can’t imagine a world where just approaching someone puts them in enough fear to resort to violence. He didn’t just approach he stalked him for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/300 "2012-03-26T03:04:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It doesn’t work like that. It explicitly works like that. Florida law, 776.041, section 2(a). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=16)