# Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560 "2012-03-22T23:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/361 "2012-03-26T15:07:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I don’t think so. If you would view my posting history, you can see that I don’t see racism where none exists and I don’t jump to rash accusations. > > But, on that tape, he didn’t say anything but that. What alternative words do you think were said? No idea. It was too garbled. I am sure it will come out at the trial, I hope the judge will make sure that the jury doesn’t hear what the words are supposed to be before they hear them. Funny enough, by the way, “goons” and “coons” would sound exactly the same when muttered. In any case, I would say “coons” is an outdated slur so unlikely to be used on the spur of the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/362 "2012-03-26T15:08:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In any case, I would say “coons” is an outdated slur so unlikely to be used on the spur of the moment. You should ask your black friend about that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/363 "2012-03-26T15:09:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Bear in mind that Zimmerman has a criminal record (charges for domestic violence and battery on a law enforcement officer) and _if he was convicted on either_ (I’m not sure that he was), he has a much bigger problem than (2). > [@](#): > > However, ABC News reported, public records show that Zimmerman was charged with battery against on officer and resisting arrest in 2005, a charge that was later “expunged” from his record. If he had a conviction on those charges, i don’t seem him obtaining the concealed carry permit. Note that expunging an arrest record requires more than simply a not-guilty finding. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/364 "2012-03-26T15:13:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > To be honest, I sort of expected the “Fuckin’ coons” thing to be bullshit. But geez, it does sound like he said exactly that. Listening to the CNN audit I cannot imagine a reasonable person not admitting he said it. > > I don’t know what it really has to do with anything, though. Racist slurs are vile but not illegal; he didn’t say it to Trayvon Martin’s face, either, so it’s not a fighting word. So it’s not really a “MAJOR DEVELOPMENT” as CNN puts it. Under §775.085, Fla. Stat., a first degree misdemeanor (such as assault or simple battery) is elevated to a third degree felony if it’s a hate crime. That means Zimmerman would be charged with a forcible felony if he was the aggressor, and pretty much obviates all this discussion of subsection (2). > [@Terr](#): > > Yes, because other than the defendant’s side of the story there was victim’s testimony and other evidence that contradicted it, and they decided that the defendant didn’t qualify for the terms of the “unless” clause. How exactly does that prove your case that this clause is not valid or operational? I don’t know. How does it prove that? More to the point, why is that “my case”? Did you miss this? [QUOTE=Me] None of this, of course, is to say that Zimmerman is absolutely precluded from asserting self defense. A jury may well find that he reasonably believed he acted to prevent serious bodily harm. However, the undisputed facts that (1) he did not require medical attention after being “beaten bloody”, (2) Martin was half his size, and (3) Martin was unarmed don’t bode well for him, even if the facts are exactly as he claims. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > But there is a statute to the contrary.Of course, because there are qualifications to the clause, one of them the “reasonability” thing. Did I ever say anything different? You’ve posted in absolute terms throughout this thread. > [@](#): > > Because there are no able bodied males ever dying from being beaten up… Sure there are. However, people who are beaten so badly as to create a reasonable fear of death _go to the hospital._ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/365 "2012-03-26T15:21:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If he had a conviction on those charges, i don’t seem him obtaining the concealed carry permit. Ha! In this state, a criminal record is not disqualifying for the purposes of obtaining a permit unless the conviction was (a) violent, and (b) in the last 3 years (5 years for drug crimes :rolleyes:). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/366 "2012-03-26T15:24:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Under §775.085, Fla. Stat., a first degree misdemeanor (such as assault or simple battery) is elevated to a third degree felony if it’s a hate crime. That means Zimmerman would be charged with a forcible felony if he was the aggressor, and pretty much obviates all this discussion of subsection (2). That might be a charge that gets their foot in the door. I don’t know if a jury would go for it, but it is reasonable on its face, and from the enormous pressure the prosecutor is facing, this might be the one they go for. And I heard “coon.” A definite hard “c” unlike “goon”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/367 "2012-03-26T15:29:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In any case, I would say “coons” is an outdated slur so unlikely to be used on the spur of the moment. When was the last time you heard anyone say “goon” outside a hockey game or gangster movie? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/368 "2012-03-26T15:33:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > That might be a charge that gets their foot in the door. I don’t know if a jury would go for it, but it is reasonable on its face, and from the enormous pressure the prosecutor is facing, this might be the one they go for. > > And I heard “coon.” A definite hard “c” unlike “goon”. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14899921&postcount=1771](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14899921&postcount=1771) Confirmation bias. Clear and simple. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/369 "2012-03-26T15:36:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No idea. It was too garbled. I am sure it will come out at the trial, I hope the judge will make sure that the jury doesn’t hear what the words are supposed to be before they hear them. Funny enough, by the way, “goons” and “coons” would sound exactly the same when muttered. > > In any case, I would say “coons” is an outdated slur so unlikely to be used on the spur of the moment. There is also an 11 year history of him calling the police about “suspicious black males” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/370 "2012-03-26T15:36:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14899921&postcount=1771](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14899921&postcount=1771) > > Confirmation bias. Clear and simple. I find Bricker’s methodology unpersuasive. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/371 "2012-03-26T15:52:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14899921&postcount=1771](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14899921&postcount=1771) > > Confirmation bias. Clear and simple. I disagree. I clicked on the link to disprove it in my mind. People seem to find racism everywhere, and I wanted to hear what nonsense they were pushing. As soon as I heard the tape, even unedited, I immediately knew what he said. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/372 "2012-03-26T15:56:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Under §775.085, Fla. Stat., a first degree misdemeanor (such as assault or simple battery) is elevated to a third degree felony if it’s a hate crime. That means Zimmerman would be charged with a forcible felony if he was the aggressor, and pretty much obviates all this discussion of subsection (2). I am unconvinced that Zimmerman saying “fuckin’ coons” under his breath makes the subsequent events a hate crime. Again, while I think Zimmerman probably committed the crime of manslaughter, I really don’t think he intended to kill Martin when he got out of his truck to confront him. Now, if Zimmerman was yelling “what are you doing here, you fucking coon” on the phone call Martin’s friend heard, well, that would be a different kettle of fish. But something whispered to oneself, well, most people say nasty shit to themselves. The statute is very vague, though, and I don’t know the case law involved so can’t tell if that would apply here. It sure seems thin. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/373 "2012-03-26T16:03:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The statute is very vague, though, and I don’t know the case law involved so can’t tell if that would apply here. It sure seems thin. It is thin, but getting an indictment doesn’t take much. It sure looks bad when you are on tape calling someone a “fucking coon” and minutes later they are dead and you are claiming self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/374 "2012-03-26T16:18:27Z")
And another thing: Where was the gun? If Martin was on top of Zimmerman was the weapon already in Zimmerman’s hand? If so, then Martin was clearly acting in self defense. Did Zimmerman manage to get the weapon out of the holster while Martin was whuppin up on him? Was there a holster? Was the strap snapped? If Zimmerman approached Martin gun in hand, he has no defense. If the weapon was ‘at the ready’ he has no defense. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/375 "2012-03-26T16:20:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > To be honest, I sort of expected the “Fuckin’ coons” thing to be bullshit. But geez, it does sound like he said exactly that. Listening to the CNN audit I cannot imagine a reasonable person not admitting he said it. > > I don’t know what it really has to do with anything, though. Racist slurs are vile but not illegal; he didn’t say it to Trayvon Martin’s face, either, so it’s not a fighting word. So it’s not really a “MAJOR DEVELOPMENT” as CNN puts it. I think it’s supposed to be important because it puts us in hate crime territory. It sounds like “fucking coons” to me too, but the “fuckin” could be “If I can…” What “coons” could have been instead I can’t figger. People still say “coons?” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/376 "2012-03-26T16:33:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Here is a link to CNN’s video which has enhanced the audio: > > [http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/03/22/ac-tuchman-trayvon-zimmerman.cnn](http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/03/22/ac-tuchman-trayvon-zimmerman.cnn) > > It sure as hell sounds to me like he says “these fucking coons” under his breath on the 911 call. I hadn’t heard the tape before watching this. CNN did a good job to play a few seconds before the slur for those of us who hadn’t heard it, because it comes pretty suddenly and is definitely muffled. But I heard “fucking coons” too, moreso when they isolated it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/377 "2012-03-26T16:34:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I think it’s supposed to be important because it puts us in hate crime territory. > > It sounds like “fucking coons” to me too, but the “fuckin” could be “If I can…” What “coons” could have been instead I can’t figger. > > People still say “coons?” [Apparently](http://gothamist.com/2012/03/09/racist_graffiti_in_fordham_sparks_o.php). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/378 "2012-03-26T16:34:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ha! In this state, a criminal record is not disqualifying for the purposes of obtaining a permit unless the conviction was (a) violent, and (b) in the last 3 years (5 years for drug crimes :rolleyes:). But what about 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1), which provides, _inter alia_, that a person who has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year is forbidden to possess a gun? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/379 "2012-03-26T16:38:26Z")
Did Zimmerman have the gun to begin with, or did he fetch it from home and then resume his “surveillance”? How did Martin “ambush” someone who was following him, hence, in clear sight? Is it a normal practice when attempting an ambush to be talking on the phone? While you sneak up in front of someone? The boy had a genius for stealth a ninja might well admire! As to the “coon” question, one of Zimmerman’s defenders has suggested that the word is “goon”, and is an affectionate reference. I’m not offering a link, having already offended your good sense passing this nugget of crap into your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/380 "2012-03-26T16:38:33Z")
As to “coons:” Several weeks ago, someone posted a link to a Youtube video in which a presenter played a music snippet backwards, and showed that people didn’t hear anything particular in it. He then told them that it said something like, “Satan’s servant comes to you,” (I don’t recall exactly what it was)., and then played it again for people. The audience then heard the words clearly. The commentary for that thread was quite positive towards the presenter. The general mood of that thread was acceptance of the phenomenon he was describing. I assume those now latching on to “coons” on this tape are not familiar with the phenomenon? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=20)