# Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560 "2012-03-22T23:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/381 "2012-03-26T16:39:52Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I disagree. I clicked on the link to disprove it in my mind. People seem to find racism everywhere, and I wanted to hear what nonsense they were pushing. As soon as I heard the tape, even unedited, I immediately knew what he said. That’s not the experiment. Whether you wanted to believe it or not, you knew you were listening for 'coons" before you heard the tape. THAT creates the bias. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/382 "2012-03-26T16:41:08Z")
> [@](#): > > But what about 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1), which provides, inter alia, that a person who has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year is forbidden to possess a gun? What about it? It presumably would preclude him from possessing a firearm if he was convicted on the LEO charge, but would not preclude the state from issuing him a permit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/383 "2012-03-26T16:43:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I find Bricker’s methodology unpersuasive. I think my methodology was generally sound - no pun intended. It really should have been double-blind, with presenters playing the clips to listeners where both the experimenter and the listener did not know what they were hearing. And of course my sampling was atrocious. But the basic principle – play it for two groups, tell one group what they are expected to hear and another group nothing at all – is exactly how to approach this question. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/384 "2012-03-26T16:43:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Did Zimmerman have the gun to begin with, or did he fetch it from home and then resume his “surveillance”? How did Martin “ambush” someone who was following him, hence, in clear sight? Is it a normal practice when attempting an ambush to be talking on the phone? While you sneak up in front of someone? The boy had a genius for stealth a ninja might well admire! [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326\_1\_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager) With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel. That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened. In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him. Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/385 "2012-03-26T16:49:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think my methodology was generally sound - no pun intended. It really should have been double-blind, with presenters playing the clips to listeners where both the experimenter and the listener did not know what they were hearing. > > And of course my sampling was atrocious. > > But the basic principle – play it for two groups, tell one group what they are expected to hear and another group nothing at all – is exactly how to approach this question. Did you give them the context (less the race of the participants, of course)? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/386 "2012-03-26T16:50:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think my methodology was generally sound - no pun intended. It really should have been double-blind, with presenters playing the clips to listeners where both the experimenter and the listener did not know what they were hearing. > > And of course my sampling was atrocious. > > But the basic principle – play it for two groups, tell one group what they are expected to hear and another group nothing at all – is exactly how to approach this question. [http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html](http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html) A documented history of calling in reports on suspicious black males would make it plausible that there was racial motivations though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/387 "2012-03-26T16:52:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If he had a conviction on those charges, i don’t seem him obtaining the concealed carry permit. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ha! In this state, a criminal record is not disqualifying for the purposes of obtaining a permit unless the conviction was (a) violent, and (b) in the last 3 years (5 years for drug crimes :rolleyes:). > [@Bricker](#): > > But what about 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1), which provides, _inter alia_, that a person who has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year is forbidden to possess a gun? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What about it? It presumably would preclude him from possessing a firearm if he was convicted on the LEO charge, but would not preclude the state from issuing him a permit. OK. FSA § 790.23 prohibits any person from owning or possessing any firearm if that person has been convicted of a felony in Florida. And FSA § 790.06, the “License to carry concealed weapon or firearm,” statute, explicitly says: > [@](#): > > (1) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section.. > . > . > . > (2) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall issue a license if the applicant: > . > . > . > (d) Is not ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to s. 790.23 by virtue of having been convicted of a felony… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/388 "2012-03-26T16:53:31Z")
When asked for his version of what happened, Trayvon Martin said nothing. Very suspicious. So I guess George Zimmerman must be telling the truth then. No reason why anybody facing serious felony charges would make stuff up. It’s not like we have any reason to think Zimmerman imagines things. Well, except for that one time he saw a guy walking down the street and imagined he was a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/389 "2012-03-26T16:54:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not the experiment. Whether you wanted to believe it or not, you knew you were listening for 'coons" before you heard the tape. > > THAT creates the bias. I still contend that it is different. Yes, I was listening for “coons,” but I didn’t know the context. I didn’t know that he used the f word, for example. I didn’t know if he screamed it out the window of his car or said it straight out to the 911 operator. When I first heard it, I could plainly hear, with a tone of derision and exasperation in his voice, him mutter under his breath, “these fucking coons.” To me it’s as plain as day with no distortion in the tape, and frankly no other logical words that could have been used. When the tape is slowed, you can clearly hear the hard “c” at the beginning of the word so as to preclude him from saying “goons”. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/390 "2012-03-26T16:59:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. > > FSA § 790.23 prohibits any person from owning or possessing any firearm if that person has been convicted of a felony in Florida. > > And FSA § 790.06, the “License to carry concealed weapon or firearm,” statute, explicitly says: He was charged but not convicted of the felony, thus it would not be disqualifying. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/391 "2012-03-26T16:59:30Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > When I first heard it, I could plainly hear, with a tone of derision and exasperation in his voice, him mutter under his breath, “these fucking coons.” To me it’s as plain as day with no distortion in the tape, and frankly no other logical words that could have been used. When the tape is slowed, you can clearly hear the hard “c” at the beginning of the word so as to preclude him from saying “goons”. Can you explain why other people can’t hear it, especially if they haven’t been told it’s there? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/392 "2012-03-26T17:02:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326\_1\_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager) > > With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel. > > That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. > > Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened. > > In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him. > > Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense. Ah! So he approached him from behind while talking on his cell phone? Did he use the cell phone to batter him? Did the conversation (“Why are you following me?/What are you doing here?”) occur while Martin was slamming his head into the ground? Did he do it one handed, while the other held the phone? Or did he make the call while battering him? Must have been, texting would have been out of the question. Did he shoot Martin while the boy was on top of him? How is it that Martin didn’t notice that he was reaching for a gun? Are there powder burns on Martins clothing and body, from such a close discharge of a hand gun. Otherwise, he must have stopped, got up, stepped away, and then got shot. Kind of blows self-defense out of the water, wouldn’t it? Keep diggin’, **Terr**. When you hear them speaking Chinese, I’ll drop you down another shovel. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/393 "2012-03-26T17:04:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Did he shoot Martin while the boy was on top of him? How is it that Martin didn’t notice that he was reaching for a gun? Are there powder burns on Martins clothing and body, from such a close discharge of a hand gun. Otherwise, he must have stopped, got up, stepped away, and then got shot. Kind of blows self-defense out of the water, wouldn’t it? 1. Read the article if you want to find out more. 2. Wow. You must have great fantasy life. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/394 "2012-03-26T17:04:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you explain why other people can’t hear it, especially if they haven’t been told it’s there? 1. They don’t know the word “coon” and how it relates to blacks. 2. They are good and decent people who would never in their wildest dreams think of using such a word, and because they’re so milquetoasty, they can’t pick it out. 3. They are strong ideologues who viscerally need the gun wielding twat to be the one in the right, because _guns equal Jesus pancakes_. So they hear what they want to hear. 4. They are shitty at hearing stuff. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/395 "2012-03-26T17:05:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you explain why other people can’t hear it, especially if they haven’t been told it’s there? Maybe they are biased 😉 [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGuctYqCDvo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGuctYqCDvo) I hear it and it fits in with his, “These \, they always get away,” Statement earlier in the call, along with his 911 call history. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/396 "2012-03-26T17:05:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you explain why other people can’t hear it, especially if they haven’t been told it’s there? Whoa, slow up there, big horse! You just insisted on a “double-blind” approach, but now you gesture vaguely in the direction of “other people” without telling us who these “other people” are, and without proving that they are innocent of any pre-knowledge. Playing a little fast and loose, aren’t we, Counselor? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/397 "2012-03-26T17:08:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 1. Read the article if you want to find out more. > > 2. Wow. You must have great fantasy life. 1. You pretty much posted everything in the article directly connected to the event. There’ isn’t anything more to read. 2. Eat your heart out. So, outside of evading the question, you have nothing further in response? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/398 "2012-03-26T17:15:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > 1. You pretty much posted everything in the article directly connected to the event. There’ isn’t anything more to read. > > 2. Eat your heart out. > > So, outside of evading the question, you have nothing further in response? There’s plenty more in the article. Apparently you decided not to read it. As for your questions - yes, I am sure the forensic results of how Martin was shot, whether there are powder burns on the clothes etc. will come out in the trial, if it occurs. The police definitely are not releasing those results to the public now. They never do, in any cases. So your fantasies are based on nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/399 "2012-03-26T17:22:01Z")
Terr, So how did Zimmerman get a clear, deadly shot at a guy who was on top if him? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/400 "2012-03-26T17:25:52Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Terr, > > So how did Zimmerman get a clear, deadly shot at a guy who was on top if him? Point blank? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=21)