# Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560 "2012-03-22T23:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/401 "2012-03-26T17:48:17Z")
With a man on top of him? Only if the gun was already in his hand. Crane ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/402 "2012-03-26T18:29:50Z")
Clarification: when did Zimmerman have the gun? I’m under the impression he went and fetched the gun, then returned to his “bear on patrol” status. Yes? No? Maybe? Was this after he was advised that his vigilant assistance was not required? He appears to have had the gun on his person when he stepped out of his car. Was he “on patrol” when he spotted Martin? Or just coming back from the store? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/403 "2012-03-26T18:36:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There’s plenty more in the article. Apparently you decided not to read it… Everything else in the article has to do with _reaction_ to the events, none of which is relevant to the events themselves. As will be obvious to anyone who reads it. There were important and relevant facts that, in my laziness, I have not read? Well, here is a splendid opportunity for you! Bring. Or quit bluffing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/404 "2012-03-26T18:36:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14899921&postcount=1771](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14899921&postcount=1771) > > Confirmation bias. Clear and simple. Did Bricker play the audio enhanced and isolated by the CNN audio engineers or did he simply play the original unenhanced 911 call? If he did play the enhanced version you might possibly have a point, but otherwise you have none. I recommend anyone who’s unsure go click on the link of the enhanced CNN audio version. I don’t see how any reasonable person could hear anything but “coon.” I also find it hysterical that “coon” is considered an archaic term that no one would ever use but “goon” isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/405 "2012-03-26T18:42:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It really should have been double-blind… > > And of course my sampling was atrocious. I agree. Just for the record, how many black people were in your sample? How many were conservative white males? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/406 "2012-03-26T18:45:53Z")
> [@](#): > > …I also find it hysterical that “coon” is considered an archaic term that no one would ever use but “goon” isn’t. Its probably more like a regionalism as well as archaic. For instance, Louisiana cajuns sometimes use the expression “coon ass” in self-denigrating reference (i.e., James “Skeletor” Carville). ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/407 "2012-03-26T18:50:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As to “coons:” > > Several weeks ago, someone posted a link to a Youtube video in which a presenter played a music snippet backwards, and showed that people didn’t hear anything particular in it. > > He then told them that it said something like, “Satan’s servant comes to you,” (I don’t recall exactly what it was)., and then played it again for people. The audience then heard the words clearly. > > The commentary for that thread was quite positive towards the presenter. The general mood of that thread was acceptance of the phenomenon he was describing. > > I assume those now latching on to “coons” on this tape are not familiar with the phenomenon? A lot of times I can’t make out the lyrics to a song and I have to look up the words. After that, I can hear them just fine. The moral of this story is that just because people heard it after being told doesn’t mean its not really there ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/408 "2012-03-26T19:27:23Z")
That’s actually a fairly well known cognitive trick, it’s related to pragnatz. It works the same way with newspapers, too. Hold the front page far enough away from someone such that they are unable to make out the words, and then tell them what they are. All of a sudden, they can “read” them. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/409 "2012-03-26T19:42:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you explain why other people can’t hear it, especially if they haven’t been told it’s there? What were the people listening to who claim they couldn’t hear “fucking coons”? Were they listening to the original unenhanced 911 audio or were they listening to the version enhanced by CNN’s audio engineers and isolated for just those two words? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/410 "2012-03-27T00:34:57Z")
This whole bit about coons probably goes in another thread. This one is for discussing the wisdom of the self-defense statute, remember. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/411 "2012-03-27T01:34:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This whole bit about coons probably goes in another thread. This one is for discussing the wisdom of the self-defense statute, remember. Exactly. Even if Zimmerman called Martin a heavenly angel it doesn’t change the fact Martin was murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/412 "2012-03-27T01:43:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Clarification: when did Zimmerman have the gun? I’m under the impression he went and fetched the gun, then returned to his “bear on patrol” status. Yes? No? Maybe? Was this after he was advised that his vigilant assistance was not required? He appears to have had the gun on his person when he stepped out of his car. > > Was he “on patrol” when he spotted Martin? Or just coming back from the store? he was not on patrol. he was heading home after being over at a friend’s (drinking) which is why everyone is so upset he wasn’t tested by the responding officer. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/413 "2012-03-27T01:52:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I am unconvinced that Zimmerman saying “fuckin’ coons” under his breath makes the subsequent events a hate crime. Again, while I think Zimmerman probably committed the crime of manslaughter, I really don’t think he intended to kill Martin when he got out of his truck to confront him. Now, if Zimmerman was yelling “what are you doing here, you fucking coon” on the phone call Martin’s friend heard, well, that would be a different kettle of fish. But something whispered to oneself, well, most people say nasty shit to themselves. > > The statute is very vague, though, and I don’t know the case law involved so can’t tell if that would apply here. It sure seems thin. i dont think this is a hate crime. i think (the “coon” thing not withstanding) it is very evident he had a bias against “young black males.” even his best friend Frank has gone on the record saying they were on the lookout for “young black males” because “young black males had been committing all these crimes…” so while it’s not a hate crime–as in “i hate black people so i killed this black kid,” we do have a situation where a guy was suspicious of \*\*ALL \*\*black men based on racial profiling and that excited state of bias led to an over zealous pursuing and subsequent murder of an innocent black kid…just because he was black. this, at least in my layman mind, would constitute a level of premeditation… like someone said, he was seeking a showdown. and found one. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/414 "2012-03-27T01:54:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Point blank? terr, do your research: eye witnesses have already said the fight was over and they were broken up when he pulled his gun and fired. a person walking their dog saw the whole thing. said they were already separated and Martin was screaming for HELP when Zimmerman went ahead and shot him. it wasn’t during the fight, not during a struggle. it was after that all happened. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/415 "2012-03-27T02:10:43Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > terr, do your research: eye witnesses have already said the fight was over and they were broken up when he pulled his gun and fired. > > a person walking their dog saw the whole thing. said they were already separated and Martin was screaming for HELP when Zimmerman went ahead and shot him. > > it wasn’t during the fight, not during a struggle. it was after that all happened. Links, dammit, links. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/416 "2012-03-27T02:11:06Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > terr, do your research: eye witnesses have already said the fight was over and they were broken up when he pulled his gun and fired. Someone saw Zimmerman fire? Link? > [@](#): > > a person walking their dog saw the whole thing. said they were already separated and Martin was screaming for HELP when Zimmerman went ahead and shot him. Wow. Way to completely misquote the eyewitness. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/417 "2012-03-27T02:11:31Z")
You’ve been around for three years. You know better than to say “do your research”. If you make a claim like that, link to a source. ETA: ninja’d by **Frylock**. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/418 "2012-03-27T02:12:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Links, dammit, links. He’s misquoting. Not that he’s gonna admit it though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/419 "2012-03-27T02:18:40Z")
Should be easy enough to prove. I’ll tell you how for a nickel. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/420 "2012-03-27T03:12:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > He’s misquoting. Not that he’s gonna admit it though. quote: \*Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated. Brown along with several other residents heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead. \* link: > **[Orlando Watch Shooting Probe Reveals Questionable Police Conduct](https://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T3EvBdWbSSo)** > > ABC News has uncovered questionable police conduct in the investigation of the fatal shooting of an unarmed 17-year-old teenager by a neighborhood watch captain, including the alleged "correction" of at least one eye witness' account and the... you were saying…? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=22)