# Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560 "2012-03-22T23:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/441 "2012-03-27T03:58:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You don’t get it. I showed you how the “witness account” that YOU brought up says it was Zimmerman crying for help and not Martin. You didn’t “show me”. You _told_ me, and I’ve seen nothing to corroborate your claim. From **dbsj** ’s link: > [@](#): > > Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated. > > Brown along with several other residents heard **someone** cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead. [emphasis added] ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/442 "2012-03-27T03:59:36Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > did you read your own link? Yes. Police spokesman Sgt. Dave Morgenstern on Thursday issued a statement disputing Cutcher’s version of events, calling her statements to WFTV “ **inconsistent with her sworn testimony to police**.” You do understand what “sworn testimony” is, right? That means she made an oath to verify its truthfulness. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/443 "2012-03-27T04:01:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You didn’t “show me”. You _told_ me, and I’ve seen nothing to corroborate your claim. I gave you a link. And quoted the relevant information from it. You apparently have some kind of selective blindness. Here it is again: [http://www.eurweb.com/2012/03/zimmerman-told-police-trayvon-tried-to-take-his-gun/](http://www.eurweb.com/2012/03/zimmerman-told-police-trayvon-tried-to-take-his-gun/) In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman’s description lying on the grass moaning and **crying for help** just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/444 "2012-03-27T04:02:27Z")
You’re welcome to give more credence to police statements, of course, but the whole reason we’re discussing the matter is because the same police bollixed the investigation. ETA: Fair enough, but it appears sources disagree on what Brown reported to police. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/445 "2012-03-27T04:05:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: Fair enough, but it appears sources disagree on what Brown reported to police. No they don’t. One says it was “someone”. The other says that “someone” was Zimmerman. So one clarifies the other. No source says that the kid reported it was Martin crying for help (which is what that other poster claimed). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/446 "2012-03-27T04:05:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. > > Police spokesman Sgt. Dave Morgenstern on Thursday issued a statement disputing Cutcher’s version of events, calling her statements to WFTV “ **inconsistent with her sworn testimony to police**.” > > You do understand what “sworn testimony” is, right? That means she made an oath to verify its truthfulness. no–it’s a signature on the bottom of the police report. do YOU understand how those work? what do you do with the quote that police didn’t take her full statement? or that they corrected her claims? the sworn testimony is the signature on the bottom of the at the scene report, which is saying 'you hereby swear this is truthful the most of your knowledge." clearly she’s upset they didn’t accept what she was trying to say. i’m not exactly sure what one does when the cops ask your side of the story and then go “no, you’re mistaken…now sign here because you’re a witness…” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/447 "2012-03-27T04:07:17Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > no–it’s a signature on the bottom of the police report. > > do YOU understand how those work? what do you do with the quote that police didn’t take her full statement? or that they corrected her claims? > > the sworn testimony is the signature on the bottom of the at the scene report, which is saying 'you hereby swear this is truthful the most of your knowledge." So she signed an untrue statement certifying it as true? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/448 "2012-03-27T04:09:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No they don’t. One says it was “someone”. The other says that “someone” was Zimmerman. So one clarifies the other. > > No source says that the kid reported it was Martin crying for help (which is what that other poster claimed). brown said “someone” cried for help then heard the gunshots but had left when the shots were fired. several many witnesses claim they heard TRAYVON. i’m not speaking ot the whole fight–i’m speaking to the cry for help when the shots were fired. those cries, according to more than one witness, were Trayvons. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/449 "2012-03-27T04:10:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So she signed an untrue statement certifying it as true? Assuming police refused to add anything to the report, it’s reasonable to assume that’s exactly what she did. What else was she supposed to do? I don’t think that actually happened, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/450 "2012-03-27T04:11:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Assuming police refused to add anything to the report, it’s reasonable to assume that’s exactly what she did. What else was she supposed to do? Seriously? Not sign an untrue statement, that’s what she is supposed to do. If she signed an untrue statement, that makes her a pretty poor witness, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/451 "2012-03-27T04:14:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Seriously? Not sign an untrue statement, that’s what she is supposed to do. > > If she signed an untrue statement, that makes her a pretty poor witness, doesn’t it? Maybe. Perhaps it makes her someone who was intimidated by police and gave in when pressed to sign. It appears that investigators may have been leading witnesses (though not necessarily as a result of malice). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/452 "2012-03-27T04:14:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So she signed an untrue statement certifying it as true? i ask you again: what does one do when they say they heard one thing and a cop says “no, you’re wrong?” exactly what point are you trying to make? i have provided you several other links to witness testimony saying they heard Trayvon cry for help. it is granted that at some point, zimmerman did cry for help as well, but the point of what i said initially is that MARTIN CRIED FOR HELP AS HE WAS BEING SHOT. which has been corroborated by several other witnesses. think about this: zimmerman claims during the fight he was crying for help. if both guys cried for help, and the officer said “it was zimmerman,” and you go “ok–yeah i guess at some point it was,” so you sign off on a thing but assert they didn’t take the whole truth. nothing about this is confusing. both guys cried for help, but the officer who responded wanted to just write this off as self defense and only took info to build that case and did not take anything else. he didn’t take the teacher’s full statement, did not investigate Trayvon’s cell call, did not document Zimmerman’s purported injuries, and did not administer a drugs or alcohol test on Zimmerman. so let me ask you this: do you think the police handled this in a manner that will ultimately dispense a true and honest amount of justice? do you think they handled it properly and honestly and well, in a manner that best seeks truth and justice? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/453 "2012-03-27T04:16:41Z")
I’m going to bed. You guys have fun. Sitting on the fence is certainly no fun at all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/454 "2012-03-27T04:18:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said, I don’t expect you to admit making stuff up. Don’t accuse other people of dishonesty. And this goes for everyone: leave the personal commentary out of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/455 "2012-03-27T04:18:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If Trayvon Martin had a gun instead of fists, Zimmerman would be dead. I for one wonder why the gun lobby has been so slow to weigh in on this. In the wake of the Virginia Tech and Northern Illinois shootings, they instantly lobbied to extend CCW laws to college campuses (hell, they [lobbied for similar laws](http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2012/01/14/ga-tech-crime-sparks-nra-backed-push-for-campus-guns/?cxntfid=blogs_political_insider_jim_galloway) just a few months ago in neighboring Georgia). It seems like whenever gun violence makes the national news, the gun lobby shows up screeching about how this tragedy could have been avoided if more people were packing. This [Facebook fact sheet from the Gun Owners of America is typical](http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=29695674542), and inadvertently ironic: > [@](#): > > Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida’s concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.13 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period – thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. 14 So, why isn’t Wayne LaPierre decrying the fact that the minimum-age gun laws in Florida prevented Trayvon Martin from legally purchasing a gun until he turned 18? Why aren’t there serious op-eds explaining the danger of unarmed citizens walking the neighborhood streets? Any guesses? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/456 "2012-03-27T04:18:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Seriously? Not sign an untrue statement, that’s what she is supposed to do. > > If she signed an untrue statement, that makes her a pretty poor witness, doesn’t it? again, if she heard Zimmerman cry for help when he started getting his ass kicked but also heard trayvon cry for help when the gun was drawn (and as he was shot) what she signed WAS true…the officer just left out part of it. apparently the officer presumes only one or the other could have cried for help. according to the 911 tapes, BOTH men did. her statement was not inconsistent nor a lie–it was just incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/457 "2012-03-27T04:19:22Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > i ask you again: what does one do when they say they heard one thing and a cop says “no, you’re wrong?” > > exactly what point are you trying to make? That she changes her sworn testimony weeks after the incident. A very reliable witness, isn’t she? > [@](#): > > it is granted that at some point, zimmerman did cry for help as well, but the point of what i said initially is that MARTIN CRIED FOR HELP AS HE WAS BEING SHOT. which has been corroborated by several other witnesses. Links. Apart from the one from that witness that apparently signs untrue statements. And apart from the parents’ statement, since we already know that the father told the police way back then that it was not his son’s voice - so him telling people it was in fact his son’s voice now is a bit too convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/458 "2012-03-27T04:22:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That she changes her sworn testimony weeks after the incident. A very reliable witness, isn’t she? > Links. Apart from the one from that witness that apparently signs untrue statements. And apart from the parents’ statement, since we already know that the father told the police way back then that it was not his son’s voice - so him telling people it was in fact his son’s voice now is a bit too convenient. \*\* I’VE POSTED THIS LINK FOUR TIMES NOW:\*\* [http://www.kmjm.com/pages/thetonyscottshow.html?feed=146161&article=9917468](http://www.kmjm.com/pages/thetonyscottshow.html?feed=146161&article=9917468) I’ll also ask you this once again: do you think the police did everything by the book, to the best of their ability, with the intention of full dispensing of truth, justice, and with honesty and TRUE JUSTICE in mind in all the ways they handled the case…? eta: more links: > **[911 Call: Trayvon Martin cried for help before gunshot](https://sandrarose.com/2012/03/911-call-trayvon-martin-cried-for-help-before-gunshot/#more-57132)** > > After repeated calls for the release of the 911 audio in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, the Sanford police department finally released the audio on Friday. Trayvon’s parents, [http://www.startribune.com/local/yourvoices/144071336.html](http://www.startribune.com/local/yourvoices/144071336.html) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/459 "2012-03-27T04:24:41Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > \*\* > I’VE POSTED THIS LINK FOUR TIMES NOW:\*\* > > [http://www.kmjm.com/pages/thetonyscottshow.html?feed=146161&article=9917468](http://www.kmjm.com/pages/thetonyscottshow.html?feed=146161&article=9917468) Which part of mine: “And apart from the parents’ statement, since we already know that the father told the police way back then that it was not his son’s voice - so him telling people it was in fact his son’s voice now is a bit too convenient.” did you not understand? You said “witnesses”. Bring them. Links. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/460 "2012-03-27T04:26:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Which part of mine: “And apart from the parents’ statement, since we already know that the father told the police way back then that it was not his son’s voice - so him telling people it was in fact his son’s voice now is a bit too convenient.” did you not understand? > > You said “witnesses”. Bring them. Links. again (i’ve quoted this seeeeveral times now: [According to the Miami Herald, witnesses said they heard Trayvon screaming for help, a booming gunshot, and then silence. Three witnesses say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Sanford teenager’s killing. All three witnesses said they heard the last screams for help from the boy, which proves that Trayvon wasn’t killed in self-defense.]([http://globalgrind.com/node/828331](http://globalgrind.com/node/828331)) eta: the teacher is not one of these three. nor is the father. the teacher is mentioned later in the article as “more witnesses come forward…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=24)