# Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560 "2012-03-22T23:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/41 "2012-03-23T05:44:01Z")
I think we should stick to the facts as we’ve read them. If we start discussing things that could hypothetically have happened even though there’s no mention of them occurring, we could suppose anything and arrive at whatever conclusion we want. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/42 "2012-03-23T05:59:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Maybe you misread the story. Roteta stole Garcia’s radio but he never attacked Garcia or anyone else. Roteta was running away from Garcia and Garcia was chasing him with a knife. Then Garcia caught Roteta and stabbed him. Cite. And I mean a cite for the claim that nothing at all happened between “Garcia was chasing him with a knife” and “Then Garcia caught Roteta and stabbed” What is your evidence that, for example, there was not an intervening argument, then a scuffle, then a series of blows and then Garcia pulled the knife, then the two struggled over the knife? Because if you don’t have any evidence that nothing happened, then you have no place posting such a claim in GD. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think we should stick to the facts as we’ve read them. If we start discussing things that could hypothetically have happened even though there’s no mention of them occurring, we could suppose anything and arrive at whatever conclusion we want. I agree. And the scenario that you just described is definitely not the facts as we have read them. It is no more accurate an accurate representation of the facts then claiming that “Garcia chased a guy who was stealing his radio, then the cops arrested him”. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/43 "2012-03-23T06:04:08Z")
[quote=“TriPolar, post:32, topic:616560”] You decided to interpret that the people are standing 6 feet apart and one was attacked by the other. Those are your details, not mine.[/qupte] No, you details were that in any situation where two people are standing outside, one has a gun and the other doesn’t, there is nothing preventing the one with a gun from retreating. Such a claim is utterly ridiculous and based upon a Hollywood conception of self defence. There are endless situations where two people are standing outside, one has a gun and the other doesn’t, the one with a gun is utterly incapable of retreating. > [@](#): > > If you want to indicate that there are more precise circumstances to consider fine. But that does not mean that all such circumstances allow this law to apply. My objection is to your claim that in any situation where two people are standing outside, one has a gun and the other doesn’t, there is nothing preventing the one with a gun from retreating. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/44 "2012-03-23T06:06:50Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > As I said (pretty clearly, I thought) my objection is to the police setting themselves up as arbiters of fact in a case where a young man has been shot. The circumstances create an issue of fact (was the shot fired in self-defense or not) which should be tried before a jury under our system of justice. In that case your objection has nothing to do with this law at all. Police have that power under all laws. you seem to be arguing that the state has an obligation to prosecute all allegations of assault, regardless of evidence or any assessment of the likelihood of conviction. Is that the case? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/45 "2012-03-23T06:12:53Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > So, in the one case, the report of the INVESTIGATING OFFICER is a total non sequitur, but in the other case, the decision of the INVESTIGATING OFFICER not to arrest is just hunky dory? Which is yet another non sequitur. Whether the testimony another investigating officer is valid or not does not alter the fact that the “testimony” that you presented is a logically sound. > [@](#): > > And, FWIW, no, I don’t really think that’s an attack Then what relevance does your scenario have to this case. This is about a case where someone claims to have been attacked. > [@](#): > > …but apparently there’s at least one judge in Miami that I might take my chances with… And what is your evidence for this assertion? You keep making a lot of assertions, but every time that you are asked for evidence all you have are yet more assertions. Supporting assertions with declarations propped up by hearsay isn’t very convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/46 "2012-03-23T06:13:30Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Do you have any evidence for this claim? > > I’m sure you agree that a 17yo is capable of posing a threat to someone. > > If we do agree with this, then I assume that you have some evidence that he never used such force, since you made that claim in GD. I erred in that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/47 "2012-03-23T06:36:57Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Blake, you seem to be saying that there is no problem with this application of the law. I don’t think you can make that statement with the evidence available. The only evidence needed to make that claim are whether the killers were engaged in lawful activities at the time of the killings and whether there is evidence that they were subjected to force. Nobody actually seems to be disputing that they were engaged in lawful activities. There is evidence that they were subjected to force, since they pleaded self defence, which requires that they be subjected to force. Now maybe you arguing that the testimony of the killer isn’t sufficient evidence. Or maybe you are arguing that there is other evidence that contradicts the account of the killer. Are either of those what you are arguing? Because if not I can’t see that we don’t have all the evidence needed to conclude that the law was applied correctly as written. > [@](#): > > The story says he was chasing with a knife, not following. That may be journalistic embroidery. Neither of us knows that. It’s a semantic quibble and nothing more. Even if he was sprinting down the street with the knife chasing after the deceased, he still wasn’t breaking any law that I am aware of. Following someone at a run is not unlawful in Florida, is it? Now if we had evidence that he was running after Roteta brandishing the knife and screaming “I’m gonna kill you motherfucker”, he was probably committing a crime. But simply chasing after someone while carrying a weapon is not a crime as far as I know. > [@](#): > > The story also does not say whether Roteta turned and fought or whether Garcia just caught up to him and stabbed him in the back. For you to then say that “he could not be charged” means that the assumption of the law would be that Garcia was attacked, evidence or not. Incorrect. The fact is that Garcia pleaded self defence. That plea requires that he testify that he was subjected to force. No assumption involved. We have the accused’s testimony that he was attacked. > [@](#): > > Maybe this is the critical question. Who has burden of proof in a case like this? Does the state have to prove that there was no attack by Roteta? Or does Garcia have to prove that there was? Well that is no secret. The state is the one bringing a criminal case, therefore the state. It has to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt that the killing was unlawful. Garcia doesn’t need to prove that he was attacked. All that he need to do is produce reasonable doubt about the state’s allegation that the killing was unlawful. You don’t need a lawyer to tell you that. > [@](#): > > In a normal self-defense case, there has to be some evidence that there was an attack. All the evidence that is required is that of the killer. That’s all. If it were otherwise then self defence would be an almost worthless defence. Whether the court \*believes \*that testimonial evidence is another matter, but that is all the evidence that is \*required \*for a judge/jury to acquit on self defence. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/48 "2012-03-23T10:28:24Z")
Bad law driven by crazy scared gun owners looking for permission to use less discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/49 "2012-03-23T10:34:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Bad law driven by crazy scared gun owners looking for permission to use less discretion. Ahhh, so someone was stabbed to death with a gun. Consider me convinced. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/50 "2012-03-23T11:15:47Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Ahhh, so someone was stabbed to death with a gun. > > Consider me convinced. Oh, I apologize. I did not realize that the law was restricted to non-firearm defense. Is my face red! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/51 "2012-03-23T11:26:04Z")
My thoughts: 1. I fully support stand your ground laws. 2. I believe that the homeowner had every right to chase the robber down the street. 3. The only open question is what prompted the stabbing. If the homeowner, as he was approaching the robber, was in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury (a tough one since the dead guy didn’t have a weapon) then he in rightfully in the clear. If he killed him because he was mad that the guy just robbed him, it’s premeditated murder. 1. For all of the talk about stand your ground, I don’t think it applies in this case. Under the old law, you could pursue and detain a fleeing felon. The only difference would have been once he caught the robber, he would have had to retreat had it been feasible. He would have a slightly higher hill to climb, but there are various reasons why retreat is not feasible in any circumstance. Bottom line: Another misplaced outcry against a great law that protects innocent people against thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/52 "2012-03-23T11:28:13Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Self defence has always been a legal defence, and the situation you describe is simply both sides claiming self defence. Both sides can claim that they were in mortal danger, and under this law, both sides can use deadly force. Therefore, street shootouts are now legal in states where open carry is legal. If you feel differently, please explain why with more than a hand wave. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/53 "2012-03-23T11:28:22Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > The law as written seems reasonable to me. I’m not a fan of “duty to retreat” laws, which make it illegal to defend yourself. I’m not sure how prosecutors can justify not charging Garcia with murder. “You do not have a duty to retreat” is a far cry from "you are allowed to chase down a fleeing person and stab them to death if he has stolen your property. > > … > The problem is not with how the law is written, but rather in how prosecutors are pretending it says something that it doesn’t actually say. Agreed. Self defense shouldn’t have to be a last resort when you have no other options thing. Otherwise you basically legitimize bullying and crimininal behavior. The problem with all the cases provided is that Florida is a state in the Dumbass Belt. Which means regardless of the law, your best defense is to try your hardest to not be Black or Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/54 "2012-03-23T11:36:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Both sides can claim that they were in mortal danger, and under this law, both sides can use deadly force. Therefore, street shootouts are now legal in states where open carry is legal. If you feel differently, please explain why with more than a hand wave. I just did explain it. Under the law of every state in the US, self defence applies to the the shootout that you describe. The Stand Your Ground law changes nothing. The only way that self defence could \*not \*apply to the shootout outside of Florida is if you believe that you can convince a jury that someone can safely retreat from an armed man who has just threatened to kill them. Do you believe that? Because if you don’t believe that, then clearly that is a self defence situation. Yet amazingly there are not wild west shootouts all over the country. In fact wild west shootouts of the type you describe _never occurred in the fucking wild west_. They were made up by Hollywood out of whole cloth, and you seem to think they were real. What part of this don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/55 "2012-03-23T11:50:44Z")
The law is a major mistake. Seeing that it was passed due to lobbying from the NRA, that’s hardly a surprise. Zimmerman is a murderer. His defense was “Waaaahhh! I had to shoot him! He gave me a bwoody nose!” The police investigation was limited to “Self defense? Cool! One less black kid.” The guy who stabbed the radio thief was a murderer as well. He appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner. If someone comes up and assaults you, sure you have the right to protect yourself. You don’t have the right to chase someone down, provoke a fight, and then claim self defense when you murder him. Unfortunately, that’s exactly what the moronic Stand Your Ground laws allow you to do. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/56 "2012-03-23T12:00:21Z")
Unless these laws are not to become a license to shoot anyone you fancy in the face if there are no witnesses around then such actions have to be tested in court. The police can’t just shrug and say ‘we can’t see any evidence that the shooter wasn’t acting in self-defence’. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/57 "2012-03-23T12:16:34Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Unless these laws are not to become a license to shoot anyone you fancy in the face if there are no witnesses around then such actions have to be tested in court. The police can’t just shrug and say ‘we can’t see any evidence that the shooter wasn’t acting in self-defence’. So even if all the physical evidence shows that an attack occurred and there is no reason at all to believe otherwise, and even if 10, 000 previous cases have all resulted in no conviction, the case still has to be taken to court, even though everybody believes that the judge will dismiss the case? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/58 "2012-03-23T12:26:27Z")
Not American, but it sounds like these laws are a goddamned disgrace and a licence for righteous nutjobs to act like their favourite movie protagonist. Absolutely crazy. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/59 "2012-03-23T12:26:48Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So even if all the physical evidence shows that an attack occurred and there is no reason at all to believe otherwise, and even if 10, 000 previous cases have all resulted in no conviction, the case still has to be taken to court, even though everybody believes that the judge will dismiss the case? :dubious: Yes. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560/60 "2012-03-23T12:28:09Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Not American, but it sounds like these laws are a goddamned disgrace and a licence for righteous nutjobs to act like their favourite movie protagonist. Absolutely crazy. You’ve got it nailed exactly right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-good-or-bad-law-poorly-understood/616560.md?page=4)