I guess I will take your word for it that there is good evidence Mr Landis was treated unfairly. The evidence I have seen cited by the governing bodies is that his T/E ratio was high (not necessarily his absolute testosterone level) and that a confirmatory test for exogenous testosterone was positive.
I understand there is controversy and apparently, incompetence, around all of this. Perhaps one reason to throw the whole thing out is that a second test was supposedly rushed to the SAME lab so the French could go on their August vacation.
On further review, I think I will change from “probably a sinner” to “probably a victim of the French.” I appreciate the encouragement to look into it further, Rick. Consider me better educated on it.
As an aside, I think professional athletes should be free to use whatever they want whenever they want. But that’s a different thread.
His performance was not superhuman. A huge chunk of the TDF is strategy. When Landis broke away nobody thought he had a chance, so they let him go. It is not uncommon for the leaders in the race to allow racers that do not have a chance in the overall to go for a stage win and do not pursue them. He broke away so early in the stage that everyone said there goes Floyd being an idiot.
By the time they woke up and realized what he had done, it was too late to catch him. The peleton did manage to gain about 3 minutes on him on the final flat stretch before the last climb.
Yeah, long story short, it was a high T/E ratio, but a low absolute value of testosterone, and then the confirmatory test was IRMS (isotope ratio mass spectroscopy) than can supposedly tell C-13 rich plant derived testosterone from C-12 rich human testosterone. The IRMS test was also “positive” by deviation from the norm, but the values within the IRMS varied enormously, which is definitely not supposed to happen with IRMS. Nothing that would have even held up to the pier review process in any respectable scientific literature. The USADA hearings are a rubber stamp, out of the dozens of cases presented, they’ve never reversed a positive finding, and the selection for panelists isn’t from qualified scientists but two of the three panel members are basically chosen from friends of the USOC board that have little qualification to hear the cases. So, the USADA hearings always split 2-1 (as they did in this case) with the athlete-selected arbitration member voting in the athletes favor.
The next step is possibly the CAS (Court for Arbitration of Sport) in Switzerland, and they’re a much more rigorous and serious organization than the yokels at USADA and WADA. They have occasionally thrown out doping cases on the basis of scientific or procedural questions, and in many cases they’ve been born out by what later became standard practice in “doping labs.” For instance, there was an Austrian triathlete a few years ago that won in the CAS because he was rather convincingly able to demonstrate that he did indeed naturally produce a positive on the WADA’s supposedly new hot-stuff isoform ratio EPO test.
The doping labs aren’t exactly top-flite institutions that attract the best and brightest in academia. Mainly PhD holding dead-enders that can’t get post-docs or faculty positions elsewhere.
Anyway, like in any professional sport, cheating exists in cycling, and it’s certianly possible that Landis was doped. But, more so than any other sport except for possibly track and field, cycling has put up a fight against it. To use one popular American sport as an example, what happens to steroid users in baseball? A few game suspensions or a warning? In cycling, the first doping case is a 4 year ban, lifetime ban for the second.
It was the denial Princhester, it was the impenetrable denial on the part of some of our American posters here that one of their own was capable of doping which brought me back.
I’m happy hanging out at Corner Carvers nowadays. Similar forum philosophy to here, but a greater intolerance of poor writing.
Nonetheless, what brought me back was the denial. There were Americans here at the time who were happy to point to any number of non American sports people as obvious examples of doping ni sport, and yet, they simply could NOT countenance that an American, particularly in the Tour de France, might have been doping. And the implication was clear… if Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis were dirty, then what hope was there that the great man himself, Lance Armstrong, wasn’t?
Well, it wasn’t about Lance Armstrong, it was just about Floyd Landis being a strong rider who was prepared to do anything to become a world beater.
Lance Armstrong was always a world beater, even at a young age. More of a Sping Classics man, but he morphed himself into a Grand Tour rider through sheer force of will power.
On re-reading this thread, I’m deeply saddened that I allowed Rick to strengthen my faith in humanity and give Mr Landis the benefit of the doubt. I should have trusted my original instincts more.
I shall wear the “Sucker” label of shame all day for letting Rick persuade me to reconsider Mr Landis’ guilt, and I thank Mr Landis for slapping my expectations for humanity–athletes in particular–back where they belong.
I also reiterate my position that doping should be legal, in cycling or any other sport. These guys are there to entertain us. We should be uninterested in whether they got to their level though genes, training or exogenous chemicals.
Why beat yourself up? You did what any person lacking in knowledge should have done, you asked questions of those who knew more than you on a particular subject. You did nothing wrong at all.
It’s the people who went into bat for Floyd Landis, against all logic, against all reasoned thought, who look so stupid now that Landis has finally admitted to his institutional doping between 2002-2006. It’s those people who chose to believe in his ridiculous claims of persecution, in his ridiculous claims of laboratory corruption, in his ridiculous claims of mis handling. It’s those people who chose to believe the bullshit coming out Landis’ mouth, simply because he was American, that should wear the word “SUCKER” on their foreheads for ever, not you.
Floyd Landis has confirmed the age old chestnut about politics - namely, it’s not the sin itself which people find so abhorrent, it’s the cover up.
It’s the people on this messageboard, a messageboard dedicated to talking the Straight Dope no less, who bought into that cover up, who deserve the kick up the ass. In doing so, they aided Floyd Landis to hurt innocent people, to accuse innocent people of corruption. In doing so, they aided Floyd Landis in setting up a donation fund which scammed almost a million bucks.
This is why I’m adopting a ruthless attitude here. People were scammed by Floyd Landis when they bought into his bullshit claims of innocence and persecution. The idiots on this messageboard who supported Landis against all logic, helped that scam.
I think the bigger issue here is how this affects Armstrong.
If Landis is right that there was a systematic doping program within the team, then it seems likely that Armstrong either
a) Knew and was part of it
b) Knew but didn’t partake and didn’t blow the whistle (in which case his success was still due in part to doping)
c) Knew nothing.
Certainly I think your view is a relevant one, however, for mine the real villian here was the dishonesty ABOUT the dishonesty by Landis all this time. To say he has issues now is a massive understatement. Apparently he talks to himself in public now all the time. He’s pretty messed up by all accounts, which is rather sad - however, all of it is of his own making.
That Armstrong is invariably going to come under yet more scrutiny is a good thing. If there was something that needed to be hidden during Armstrong’s reign, invariably somebody is going to crack I think.
What’s important right now is that we’re having the discussion, the right discussion. I dragged up this discussion regarding Landis in another thread and a fellow poster attacked me personally for having a need to gloat. He missed the point. The real story here is redemption, and how Landis has burnt his chances of redemption with a blow torch.
It’s irrelevant whether I’m gloating about whether I was right all along, what’s really important is how Landis has so completely alienated EVERYONE in his life since his bust. Nobody has a kind word to say.
Unlike Ivan Basso for example, who served his two years and is now universally loved throughout the sport.
Can’t see Armstrong being too ruffled by this. Landis has shown that he is a brass-necked, copper-bottomed, titanium-plated lying liar. I mean honestly it’s breath-taking - how is anyone going to believe a word he says ever again? Lance escaped that era without leaving any physical evidence behind - he’s got away with it like it or not.
More than that, Landis is far past dishonest and well into mental illness territory. When Armstrong dismisses him by questioning his (Floyd’s) mental equilibrium, he’s not just avoiding the question. Floyd sounds completely unbalanced by the whole escapade.
I agree with you on that score. You’re absolutely right that Landis is right into mental illness territory. But holy shit he’s brought it on himself. It’s not something I would do normally, that is, to blame a victim of mental illness for their own issues but in this instance I’m making the exception.
And you’re right about something else too… the very fact that Landis has painted himself into such a crazy man’s corner is the “get out of jail free” card which Armstrong is gonna play for the next few months.
I’ve got to say something however… this time around? Armstrong is nowhere near as popular amongst Americans as years gone by. I’m reading various blogs and messageboards… it seems as though a lot of Americans have reached a far more informed assessment of Armstrong’s personality.
This being the last little lie to himself that Landis is maintaining because he can’t face up to having ripped off his gullible fans for a million bucks
