# Flying the flaq is jingoistic war mongering!

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [October 20, 2001, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611 "2001-10-20T18:59:33Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 12\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/21 "2001-10-22T00:25:09Z")

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How about a UN flag, if you don’t feel like putting up a US flag?

A friend on the cartoon doll making circuit made a really nice banner, for four people holding hands with the UN flag in the backdrop that says “United We Are…” I like it…it’s like, we’ll get through this, together.

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**Author:** ![Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ebca7d/32.png) [@Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violet)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/22 "2001-10-22T00:33:40Z")

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I disagree that “peace” is the “whole point of this war.” I imagine you can have “peace” in a country that doesn’t recognize women as equal to men if the meaning of “peace” is no fighting. IMHO, some of the things we are fighting for are certain freedoms. Not just “peace.” I seriously doubt there will ever be “peace on earth.”

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**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/23 "2001-10-22T01:27:52Z")

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Where can I get one of those “Don’t Tread on Me,” coiled snake flags? Seems a whole hell of a lot more appropriate than some of the alternatives suggested here.

I don’t see the millions of Americans (including me) flying the American flag as a rubber stamp for unwavering, uncriticizing support of everything the government and military does.

IMO, the flags are a statement to the terrorists. Their actions on Sept. 11 were an attempt to drive us into disarray and chaos, to tear us down. The flag is a symbolic way of saying Sept. 11 forged us into an even greater unity than we had before. (And it was pretty damned great then.)

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**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/24 "2001-10-22T01:33:12Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*  
> \*\*How about a UN flag, if you don’t feel like putting up a US flag?
> 
> A friend on the cartoon doll making circuit made a really nice banner, for four people holding hands with the UN flag in the backdrop that says “United We Are…” I like it…it’s like, we’ll get through this, together. \*\*

The U.N., such as “it” is, was not attacked.

The U.S. was.

The buildings and planes were U.S. buildings and planes.

Most of the people killed …and most of the surviving victims, friends and families are Americans.

The response, both diplomatic and military, is being led by the United States…our friends are supporting us because of our friendship, not because of the U.N.

I don’t really see or understand the significance of flying a U.N. flag in reponse to the events of September 11.

I note from the author’s bio that she counts Susan Sontag among her “vocal fans”.

Big surprise, that. :rolleyes:

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**Author:** ![Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ebca7d/32.png) [@Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violet)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/25 "2001-10-22T01:49:42Z")

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The snake flags are on eBay.

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**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/26 "2001-10-22T02:21:03Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by beagledave \*  
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*  
> > \*\*How about a UN flag, if you don’t feel like putting up a US flag?
> > 
> > A friend on the cartoon doll making circuit made a really nice banner, for four people holding hands with the UN flag in the backdrop that says “United We Are…” I like it…it’s like, we’ll get through this, together. \*\*
> 
> The U.N., such as “it” is, was not attacked.
> 
> The U.S. was.
> 
> The buildings and planes were U.S. buildings and planes.
> 
> Most of the people killed …and most of the surviving victims, friends and families are Americans.
> 
> The response, both diplomatic and military, is being led by the United States…our friends are supporting us because of our friendship, not because of the U.N.
> 
> I don’t really see or understand the significance of flying a U.N. flag in reponse to the events of September 11.
> 
> I note from the author’s bio that she counts Susan Sontag among her “vocal fans”.
> 
> Big surprise, that. :rolleyes: \*\*

It depends how you view the attacks.

If you view the attacks as an act of terrorism designed to intimidate the United States out of Saudi Arabia and its support of Israel, then fly a US flag. A perfectly valid perspective.

If you view the attacks as an act of terrorism against freedoms and values shared by people across the world, irrespective of their nationality, then fly a UN flag.

I’m not an American. I owe no loyalty to the US flag. I’m horrified by the events of 11 September. It happened on American soil, but it could have happened in London or Beijing. I consider the attacks to be a declaration of war against democracy, freedom and the rule of law, values which I cherish and which millions of non-Americans cherish. My country is sending Special Forces troops to fight in Afghanistan. People from nations across the planet were killed in the WTC attacks. I respect your decision to fly a US flag, but I’ll fly a UN flag.

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**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/27 "2001-10-22T02:38:32Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \*  
> Well, the flag symbolizes her right to hate the flag. If she thinks that the flag is “jingoistic warmongering”, then it follows that the right to speak freely is as well.
> 
> The flag is a symbol of our country, and for the civil rights we hold so dear.
> 
> If she doesn’t like it, she is welcome to try another country. Perhaps she’d prefer Afganistan.
> 
> Or perhaps she should re-evaluate what it means to be part of a free society.

At first I was going to suggest you read Pollitt’s full article because you clearly had completely misunderstood her. However, then I realized that you had completely misunderstood even the quote that was provided to you (or else you wouldn’t have written the last two paragraphs of nonsense that you did here).

Go back, read the paragraph, read the article, read Pollitt’s subsequent articles on this subject:

[http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011105&s=pollitt](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011105&s=pollitt)  
[http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011022&s=pollitt](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011022&s=pollitt)

and then see if you are still capable of making ludicrous attacks on one of the more intelligent columnists on the scene today.

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**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/28 "2001-10-22T02:44:57Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \*  
> \*\*
> 
> If you view the attacks as an act of terrorism against freedoms and values shared by people across the world, irrespective of their nationality, then fly a UN flag.

\*\*

If I’m not mistaken a lot of nations such as China, the Sudan, Libya, Iraq, and Iran are all members of the United Nations. How anyone can tell me the UN stands for freedom and the same values as the United States or Great Britian is beyond me.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> My country is sending Special Forces troops to fight in Afghanistan. People from nations across the planet were killed in the WTC attacks. I respect your decision to fly a US flag, but I’ll fly a UN flag. \*\*

What role does the United Nations have in this whole thing? I haven’t seen any UN troops or planes in or around Afghanistan.

Marc

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**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/29 "2001-10-22T03:23:15Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MGibson \*  
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \*  
> > \*\*
> > 
> > If you view the attacks as an act of terrorism against freedoms and values shared by people across the world, irrespective of their nationality, then fly a UN flag.
> 
> \*\*
> 
> If I’m not mistaken a lot of nations such as China, the Sudan, Libya, Iraq, and Iran are all members of the United Nations. How anyone can tell me the UN stands for freedom and the same values as the United States or Great Britian is beyond me.
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*\*  
> > My country is sending Special Forces troops to fight in Afghanistan. People from nations across the planet were killed in the WTC attacks. I respect your decision to fly a US flag, but I’ll fly a UN flag. \*\*
> 
> What role does the United Nations have in this whole thing? I haven’t seen any UN troops or planes in or around Afghanistan.
> 
> Marc \*\*

The reason why the UN isn’t involved in this is because the United States doesn’t want it to be. Do American forces really want to be under the command of, say, a Norwegian or Belgian general? The UN Security Council has made two resolutions, imposing sanctions -1267 in 1999, and 1333 of 2001, which reads in brief:

> [@](#):
>
> Resolution 1333 (2000) Calls for Closure of Training Camps, End to Provision of Sanctuary; Ban Imposed on Military Assistance
> 
> The Security Council demanded this afternoon that Afghanistan’s Taliban authorities act swiftly to close all camps where terrorists are trained in the territory under their control and called for confirmation of such closures by the United Nations.
> 
> Adopting resolution 1333 (2000) by a vote of 13 in favour to none against, with two abstentions (China and Malaysia), the Council demanded that the Taliban cease the provision of sanctuary and training for international terrorists and their organizations, ensure the territory under their control was not used for terrorist installations and camps, and cooperate with international efforts to bring indicted terrorists to justice. It demanded also that the Taliban turn over Usama bin Laden to appropriate authorities in a country where he had been indicted, where he would be returned to such a country, or where he would be arrested and effectively brought to justice.
> 
> By other terms of the resolution, which had 26 operative provisions, the Council decided that all States shall:
> 
> – prevent the supply, sale and transfer of arms and related materiel, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment and spare parts to the territory of Afghanistan under Taliban control as designated by the Committee established pursuant to resolution 1267 (1999), by their nationals or from their territories, or using their flag vessels or aircraft;
> 
> – prevent the supply, sale and transfer to the territory of Afghanistan under Taliban control as designated by the Committee of technical advice, assistance, or training related to the military activities of Taliban armed personnel; and
> 
> – withdraw any of their officials, agents, advisers and military personnel present in Afghanistan to advise the Taliban on military or related security matters.
> 
> Also by the text, the Council decided that those measures shall not apply to supplies of non-lethal military equipment intended solely for humanitarian or

The UN doesn’t stand for freedom? You’ve never read the [UN Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html)?

Yes I know that rogue nations are members of the UN. Democratic representation entitles everyone to express their views, no matter how stupid, cruel or evil. I think you even allow that in the US. The UN is “…a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations…”(UN Charter 1945). It would be a mistake to think it is a reflection of US or UK interests. The US flag is not representative of the hopes of a non-anarchist world (international relations are anarchist, of course, outside of the UN) of enduring freedoms and liberties to people outside of the US. The UN flag is.

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**Author:** ![Caracticus\_Potts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bcef8e/32.png) [@Caracticus\_Potts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caracticus_Potts)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/30 "2001-10-22T04:27:36Z")

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Like interpreting any symbol, the interpretation says more about the person doing the interpreting than it does about the symbol.

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**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/31 "2001-10-22T05:01:12Z")

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Heh. Very true.

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**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-flaq-is-jingoistic-war-mongering/88611/32 "2001-10-22T12:54:34Z")

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I saw how a U.N.-style decision-making process in a military operation worked in the former Yugoslavia.

Thanks just the same, but I think we’ll continue this operation led by the people in that building with the big, black, charred hole in it, in suburban D.C.

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