# Flying the Israeli Flag in American Synagogues **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042 "2002-10-13T03:13:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/21 "2002-10-14T03:11:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tlw \* > \*\* > > The Christian Flag > \*\* I though that was Sweden or Finland or something. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/22 "2002-10-14T05:05:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucwarm \* > \*\*Another example: As I recall, there was a case a few years ago of Jewish guy in the military who was caught turning secret stuff over to Israel. After the guy got thrown in the slammer, there were Jewish groups lobbying for his release. > > I \*\* You’re thinking of Jonathon Pollard and this Jewish-American thinks that he should stay in jail for life. As for the OP, I’ve never seen an Israeli flag flown in or around a synagogue here in California but if I did it would make me uncomfortable. Haj ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/23 "2002-10-14T05:35:27Z")
My synagogue displays both flags on opposite sides of the alter and always has as far as I can recall. Israel is very much to the Jews what the Vatican is to Catholics and Mecca and Medina are to Muslims. My Hebrew school upbringing was strongly Zionist and even culminated in a trip to Israel. But, I don’t believe it is at all indicative of lack of allegiance to America. It’s fairly clear why synagogues would display the Israeli flag. According to the Torah that land was promised by God to the Jews. It’s unfortunate that they’re not the only ones with a claim, but that’s another story. I myself no longer consider myself Jewish (for philosophical and scientific reasons) nor fully support Israel or America at this time (for political reasons) but I can tell you that the vast majority of American Jews are completely in support of America and the War on Terror, and care greatly about the safety of America and Israel. For me to speak otherwise is generally out of the question even though it’s not that I don’t want America or Israel to be safe, I most certainly do, but that I think they are both going after it in all the wrong ways. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/24 "2002-10-14T08:17:34Z")
How funny. [QOUTE]The Christian flag is one of the oldest unchanged flags in the world [/QUOTE] Followed by: > [@](#): > > It was conceived at Brighton Chapel, Coney Island, New York, Sunday, September 26, 1897 1897, WOW that is ANCIENT. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart\_v3.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart\_v3.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart_v3.0)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/25 "2002-10-14T10:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cainxinth \* > \*\*My synagogue displays both flags on opposite sides of the alter and always has as far as I can recall. Israel is very much to the Jews what the Vatican is to Catholics and Mecca and Medina are to Muslims. My Hebrew school upbringing was strongly Zionist and even culminated in a trip to Israel. But, I don’t believe it is at all indicative of lack of allegiance to America. It’s fairly clear why synagogues would display the Israeli flag. According to the Torah that land was promised by God to the Jews. It’s unfortunate that they’re not the only ones with a claim, but that’s another story. > > I myself no longer consider myself Jewish (for philosophical and scientific reasons) nor fully support Israel or America at this time (for political reasons) but I can tell you that the vast majority of American Jews are completely in support of America and the War on Terror, and care greatly about the safety of America and Israel. For me to speak otherwise is generally out of the question even though it’s not that I don’t want America or Israel to be safe, I most certainly do, but that I think they are both going after it in all the wrong ways. \*\* As someone who has little to do with either Jews or Arabs as a matter of geography, I am constantly alarmed by news reports of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians (and obviously vice versa). To be clear, the presence of the flag of Israel in synagogues, as has been described here, is a) an affirmation of religious identity with the land which gave birth to the Jewish faith? b) a reminder to pray for the safety of Israel? c) a gesture of support for Israeli policies? I fully appreciate and empathise with a) and b). Its c) I have an issue with. Synagogues should be places which espouse peace, not support contentious governmental policies. Perhaps all sovereign flags have no place in temples of worship. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/26 "2002-10-14T11:36:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart v3.0 \* > \*\* > I fully appreciate and empathise with a) and b). Its c) I have an issue with. Synagogues should be places which espouse peace, not support contentious governmental policies. > \*\* So no church/synagogue should discuss any political issue? Catholics shouldn’t have sermons against abortion? Reverend King shoulda just shut up? Reverend Jackson should shut up? (ok…maybe that one adds to you arguement. 😉 ) The point is religion has been involved with politics for as long as religion has existed. Your ideal state of religion not supporting “contentious governmental policies.” has never existed. Even in the Jewish community, there are synagogues that are more or less political. One of my cousins belongs to a synagogue that’s (based on the services I’ve been dragged to) actually a rally meeting for extreme far-left democrats masqurading as being a service: 1 hour and some odd minutes of blithering about how the congregation needs to go lobby for this and protest that and about 8 minutes of discussion of God, the Torah, prayers, etc. And this sort of thing ain’t limited to Jews, the far-left, or democrats. I’m sure there are tons of churches that do the same for the right. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/27 "2002-10-14T17:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OWD \* > **Of course the Talmud teaches that we goyum only have human bodies because is is unfitting for a jew to be served by a beast.** Gotta cite for that, or are you just quoting misinformation that you picked up somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart\_v3.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart\_v3.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart_v3.0)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/28 "2002-10-15T12:04:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > > So no church/synagogue should discuss any political issue? Catholics shouldn’t have sermons against abortion? Reverend King shoulda just shut up? Reverend Jackson should shut up? (ok…maybe that one adds to you arguement. 😉 ) > > The point is religion has been involved with politics for as long as religion has existed. Your ideal state of religion not supporting “contentious governmental policies.” has never existed. > > Even in the Jewish community, there are synagogues that are more or less political. One of my cousins belongs to a synagogue that’s (based on the services I’ve been dragged to) actually a rally meeting for extreme far-left democrats masqurading as being a service: 1 hour and some odd minutes of blithering about how the congregation needs to go lobby for this and protest that and about 8 minutes of discussion of God, the Torah, prayers, etc. > > And this sort of thing ain’t limited to Jews, the far-left, or democrats. I’m sure there are tons of churches that do the same for the right. > > Fenris \*\* Having thought about what you’ve said, you’re right, and I concede your point. If synagogues choose to back Israeli pogroms of Palestinians, that’s their business. ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/29 "2002-10-15T17:10:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart v3.0 \* > \*\*If synagogues choose to back Israeli pogroms of Palestinians, that’s their business. \*\* A glib remark like that begs a followup. It’s unfair to classify Israeli interventions as pogroms unless you can make a case that they are specifically targeting civilians and not guerrilla militants and their supporters. You won’t find me arguing that Israel has stepped over many boundaries, especially in destroying the homes of Palestinians only suspected of harboring terrorist, but if you are going to make a comment like that, especially here, you had better be prepared to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart\_v3.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart\_v3.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart_v3.0)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/30 "2002-10-15T17:29:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cainxinth \* > \*\* > > A glib remark like that begs a followup. > > It’s unfair to classify Israeli interventions as pogroms unless you can make a case that they are specifically targeting civilians and not guerrilla militants and their supporters. You won’t find me arguing that Israel has stepped over many boundaries, especially in destroying the homes of Palestinians only suspected of harboring terrorist, but if you are going to make a comment like that, especially here, you had better be prepared to back it up. \*\* You don’t need to lecture me on the protocols of this place. [http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=pogrom](http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=pogrom) > [@](#): > > An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews > [@](#): > > n : organized persecution of an ethnic group (especially Jews) (I wasn’t aware that historically it had been used in respect of Jews, I must admit.) I’d say repeated indiscriminate bombing of civilians and the systematic destruction of a regional economy associated with that culturally defined group of civilians is an “organised persecution of an ethnic group”. I disagree with your contention that civilians need to be “specifically targeted”. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/31 "2002-10-15T18:45:56Z")
Dave Stewart v3.0: > [@](#): > > I’d say repeated indiscriminate bombing of civilians… But in what way have Israeli actions against the Palestinians been indiscriminate? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/32 "2002-10-16T00:35:34Z")
I’ve seen the term pogrom used as in Russia, where unofficially encouraged hunts were arranged, the dead Jews laid out in rows like trophies. I don’t remember the book where I saw the photograph. It took place under Tsar Alexander III. Admitedly it bothered me a great deal less as a goy than it does now. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart\_v3.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart\_v3.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart_v3.0)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/33 "2002-10-16T03:56:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\*Dave Stewart v3.0: > > But in what way have Israeli actions against the Palestinians been indiscriminate? \*\* > [@](#): > > …many feel it does not look good, including Yossi Sarid, leader of the left-wing opposition Meretz party. > > “If you send an F-16 to a very heavily crowded city with a one-ton bomb you have to estimate from the very beginning that innocent people will be killed. So it was a very, very grave mistake of the Israeli Government,” he said. > > They have been offering regrets, but no apologies. > > Foreign Minister Shimon Peres acknowledged that with the benefit of hindsight, it was wrong to bomb Salah Shahada in such a crowded area. > > "But when it [the area] was targeted we didn’t have the slightest idea about it. What happened now is a tragedy and we regret it very, very much. > > “I don’t take it lightly, but war causes mistakes and the greatest mistake is the war itself,” he said. From the BBC website: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/2150131.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2150131.stm) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/34 "2002-10-16T04:21:43Z")
I’m pretty sure that even a cursory search will turn up multiple threads discussing (or ranting that) _those_ people are the truly bad ones in the Middle East. I suspect that continuing similar claims would be more productive in those threads than in hijacking this one. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/35 "2002-10-16T16:40:30Z")
Dave Stewart v3.0: Your cite does not indicate that Israeli actions were indiscriminate. Even Yossi Sarid and Shimon Peres said that the presence of civilians in the targeted area was a mistake, not a deliberate policy of indiscriminate targeting. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/36 "2002-10-16T19:29:41Z")
Ok, in my country is common to see the Vatican Flag but then again according to our constitution the state “supports” the Catholic religion. Not only it is common to see the Vatican flag in churches but also when the president addresses the country you can sometimes see both the argentinian and the vatican flag. Also remember that the shield represents the current Pope, so the flag represents both the Pope and the Vatican. Now the flag of Israel uses a common jewish symbol, the star of David. So I don’t think anything wrong in riasing it on a synagogue, I never saw that practice in my country but, in my state, they are a lot of Syrians. The majority are coptics?, once I went to a service to one of their temples and they displayed the flag of Syria. Personally I don’t see what’s the big deal ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/37 "2002-10-16T19:39:48Z")
My God, that’s the worst thing I’ve written in my hole life. In two paragraphs I managed to repeat “vatican” 10 times. And the sintaxis is horrible. My apologies to all. Next Time I’ll preview. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/38 "2002-10-17T18:13:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harmonious \* > \*\*. Every Shabbat we say a short prayer for Tzahal and for the well-being of the State of Israel, and since September 11 of last year, we’ve also said a prayer on behalf of the United States government, and for the United States Armed Forces. > > Over the Three Weeks, we had a Tzedaka drive to raise $25,000 to buy a bullet-proof security van to be used as a schoolbus. Many of our members (who have enough money to do so) make a trip or two to Israel during the year. > > I don’t know that we are particularly concerned with Israel’s politics as much as we are concerned that the land God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a place we strive to go. When members of our congregation make Aliya, we celebrate, and we look forward to the day we can join them. \*\* Hi, **Harmonious** , and in the interest of fighting ignorance - I know what a “shul” is, and I assume Aliya is a trip to Israel. What are "Tzahal’ and “Tsedaka”? And welcome to the SDMB. FWIW - my mainstream Christian church (Lutheran) flies the Christian flag in the sanctuary, and the US flag in the narthex. And I must confess that I was the one suggesting that the US flag be moved out there. I also don’t sing patriotic songs when they are included in the service (the US national anthem, and so forth). If this strikes OWD as divided loyalty, he is warmly invited to pound sand. For a variety of reasons. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/39 "2002-10-17T21:51:40Z")
Shodan: > [@](#): > > What are "Tzahal’ and “Tsedaka”? Tzahal is the Hebrew abbreviation for words which translate as “Army for national defense” (of Israel, obviously). “Tsedaka” is generally accepted as meaning “charity”…although, while this is true, it obscures the fact that in Hebrew, the same word is used for “justice.” Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042/40 "2002-10-17T22:14:08Z")
**Shodan** , Shul is the Yiddish word for Synagogue. Aliya literally means “going up”, and in this context means moving permanently to Israel. (It’s also the term used when one is called to the Torah during services.) Tzahal is the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force. (It’s a Hebrew acronym, in the same way as IDF is an English one.) Tzedaka is charitable giving. The Three Weeks are a period of mourning in the late summer, during which Jerusalem was sacked and culminating on the fast day on which both Temples were burned. **Harmonious** , welcome to the Boards! I know it’s hard to speak in English, rather than what I always call ‘Jewish’, the Orthodox Jewish blend of English structure and grammar with key words in Hebrew/Yiddish/Aramaic, but remember that most people here don’t share the same background, and need translations. This goes not just for non-English words, but also for technically English phrases like “the Three Weeks”, which lose all meaning without the background knowlege that it’s very easy to take for granted. I see on preview that **Chaim** beat me to it, but I’m inflicting this on you all anyway. And I just got a server not responding, so if this is a simulpost, sorry! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-the-israeli-flag-in-american-synagogues/132042.md?page=3)