# Flying w/military funeral flag (containing spent ammo) - need answer fast! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 23, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923 "2012-12-23T15:23:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/1 "2012-12-23T15:23:39Z")
My girlfriend is flying home for Christmas, and would like to bring (in checked baggage) the flag from her Grandfather’s (military honors) funeral, which I believe per tradition has spent shell casings from the (blank) rounds fired by the honor guard folded into it. She thinks to bring this on the plane it would have to be treated as live ammunition - in a locked rigid box (?)…I would imagine people carry such flags home from funerals etc. routinely on airplanes without issue - anyone have any experience or know the answer for sure? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/2 "2012-12-23T15:41:42Z")
Rules for checked baggage are not so strict. Actual live unspent ammunition can be carried in checked luggage. [link](http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information/firearms-and-ammunition) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/3 "2012-12-23T16:06:33Z")
That’s a new one on me. I’ve seen dozens of military funerals (used to live just down the road from Arlington National Cemetery) and I’ve never seen anyone put shells in the flag. Every military funeral I’ve seen, the flag is folded by two of the honor guard, neither of whom placed anything at all in the flag, and then presented to the senior member of the guard, who in turn presents the flag to the next-of-kin of the deceased. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/4 "2012-12-23T17:56:00Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s a new one on me. I’ve seen dozens of military funerals (used to live just down the road from Arlington National Cemetery) and I’ve never seen anyone put shells in the flag. Every military funeral I’ve seen, the flag is folded by two of the honor guard, neither of whom placed anything at all in the flag, and then presented to the senior member of the guard, who in turn presents the flag to the next-of-kin of the deceased. It’s something the VFW Honor Guards seem to do. That’s the only group I’ve seen do it, and they always do it. Don’t know where they got that idea from, though. Searching the net, I see a lot of non-official Honor Guards and ceremonial units do it because of “tradition”, but no mention of where the tradition started. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/5 "2012-12-23T19:13:26Z")
At my father’s military funeral, they gave us the flag and the spent rounds separately. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/6 "2012-12-24T00:39:51Z")
Is her home in the US? Live ammunition can be carried in checked luggage, but It would be a questionable proposition to go on an international flight. The destination nation might take exception. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/7 "2012-12-24T00:54:47Z")
Yes she was traveling within the US. Apparently her mother had called some TSA hotline and was given the answer about the locked box etc. (which is why she herself hadn’t taken it home directly after the funeral), but my girlfriend just put it in her checked baggage and had no problems…thanks to all who replied. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/8 "2012-12-24T07:55:22Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > It’s something the VFW Honor Guards seem to do. That’s the only group I’ve seen do it, and they always do it. Don’t know where they got that idea from, though. Searching the net, I see a lot of non-official Honor Guards and ceremonial units do it because of “tradition”, but no mention of where the tradition started. Still strikes me as odd. My father is a member of his American Legion Honor Guard unit and they don’t do that ammo in the flag bit. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/9 "2012-12-24T13:49:47Z")
Important to know what state she’s flying out of - assuming it’s domestic USA travel. I’ve flown with firearms and ammo. Each state is different. Best if she packs the shells in her checked-in luggage. I’ve never flown with casings in carry-on bags, so can’t speak to that but would not want the hassle and delay of the extra scrutiny and questions, plus the possible embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/10 "2012-12-24T13:57:29Z")
My wife’s grandfather was a USAF veteran. His Honor Guard gave us the spent casings, but separately and not in the folded flag. I doubt the US Flag Code permits that (casings in the folded flag), but I don’t have a cite right now. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/11 "2012-12-24T15:10:58Z")
At my dad’s funeral, they gave me the flag, and then gave me a Ziploc bag with the spent brass. They said that I should disperse the shells in groups of three, and that three shells should remain with the flag, but they weren’t actually folded into it. For what it’s worth, I faced the same question as the OP, but decided not to try to fly with it, and left the casings with my mom, who is local. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/12 "2012-12-24T15:18:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > At my dad’s funeral, they gave me the flag, and then gave me a Ziploc bag with the spent brass. They said that I should disperse the shells in groups of three, and that three shells should remain with the flag, but they weren’t actually folded into it. > > For what it’s worth, I faced the same question as the OP, but decided not to try to fly with it, and left the casings with my mom, who is local. “Groups of three” - curious, how many shells were there? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/13 "2012-12-24T15:42:34Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > “Groups of three” - curious, how many shells were there? Three vollies of 5 to 8 rifles. So between 15 and 24 shells. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/14 "2012-12-24T15:46:05Z")
Thanks. I can’t count that high. I run out of fingers. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/15 "2012-12-24T15:52:02Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > Important to know what state she’s flying out of - assuming it’s domestic USA travel. I’ve flown with firearms and ammo. Each state is different… Other than getting to and from the airport, I don’t see what difference state law makes. The Transportation Security Administration, a Federal agency, makes the rules as what you can and cannot carry aboard a plane. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/16 "2012-12-24T18:28:35Z")
7 rifles, in the case of my dad’s funeral (for a 21-gun salute). And the three volleys represent three virtues (I can’t remember off the top of my head which-- Something like loyalty, patriotism, and courage), and so each of the three shells in a set represents one of those virtues, too. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/17 "2012-12-25T04:01:52Z")
It’s a common misconception, Chronos, but the firing party at a military funeral is not performing a 21 Gun Salute. 7 rifles in the party is not even prescribed. The field manual for the Army states “no less than 5, no more than 8”. That your father had 7 rifles in the party is mostly coincidence, but 7 rifles shooting 3 vollies is not a 21 Gun Salute. A 21 Gun Salute is something else entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/18 "2012-12-25T06:59:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Other than getting to and from the airport, I don’t see what difference state law makes. The Transportation Security Administration, a Federal agency, makes the rules as what you can and cannot carry aboard a plane. True, however, states (and cities) differ by what firearms you are allowed to possess in their state (and particularly, being _ **at** _ the airport). I know someone who flew from CA to NYC (JFK airport) and arrived there just fine. On his outbound flight he declared his firearms as required by TSA. No problem. But when he was returning home he was arrested at JFK airport by NY’s Port Authority Police Department as he was declaring his firearms at the airline counter because he needed to have some kind of NY state registration for them even though he was the legally registered owner in CA. He ended up in jail overnight, released the next day on his own recognizance, and hired a lawyer for about $20,000 (the same lawyer who defended another NY Giant player in the Plaxico Burriss gun case - not Burriss). His lawyer ended up getting the charges dropped for him. So, while it was no problem flying to NYC, it certainly was a problem flying out of NYC while returning home. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/19 "2012-12-27T00:20:43Z")
Huh, OK, **Bear\_Nenno**. So, what _is_ a real 21-gun salute, then? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/20 "2012-12-27T04:13:51Z")
The 21 Gun Salute is a salute rendered to the President of the United States or equivalent foreign dignitaries. Lesser dignitaries are given fewer gun salutes. (19 for a VP, for instance). A rifle in the military is never a “gun”. The term “gun” is reserved for things like cannons, artillery, or big naval guns. So the 21 Gun Salute is rendered using cannons. It is fired one round at a time, and is accompanied by prescribed fanfare and “Hail to the Chief”. For foreign heads of state, their national anthem will be played. The salute is rendered at the arrival and departure of the dignitary. In the event of the death of the President or former president, a 21 Gun Salute is rendered at noon on the following day. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923.md?page=2)