# Flying w/military funeral flag (containing spent ammo) - need answer fast! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 23, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923 "2012-12-23T15:23:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/21 "2012-12-27T04:26:49Z")
Looks like this: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPM2C9uZphk) ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/22 "2012-12-27T05:39:26Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s a new one on me. I’ve seen dozens of military funerals (used to live just down the road from Arlington National Cemetery) and I’ve never seen anyone put shells in the flag. Every military funeral I’ve seen, the flag is folded by two of the honor guard, neither of whom placed anything at all in the flag, and then presented to the senior member of the guard, who in turn presents the flag to the next-of-kin of the deceased. My husband served on many honor guards at military funerals during his 20 years in the Army. He always collected the spent shells and inserted them into the folded flag. When Daddy died, he made a point of going to each of the rifle bearers and asking them for the shells to be placed in the flag. If the OP’s girlfriend is concerned, she can declare the item at the ticket counter at check in. My condolences to her family on the loss of her father. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/23 "2012-12-27T05:42:01Z")
The firing of rifles at a military funeral is derived from an old Roman custom of saying “Farewell” three times over the open grave. The number of rifles used is proscribed by the rank of the servicemember. The three volleys is from the Roman tradition. (and dear God NO, you NEVER call a rifle a “gun”…HORRORS!) ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/24 "2012-12-27T05:45:23Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > If the OP’s girlfriend is concerned, she can declare the item at the ticket counter at check in. Again, before you do, check not only the TSA requirements, but also state-specific requirements. Just because you meet TSA req’s, doesn’t mean you won’t get arrested for failure to meet state-specific requirements. (see [post #18](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15830997#post15830997)) ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/25 "2012-12-27T06:03:19Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > The firing of rifles at a military funeral is derived from an old Roman custom of saying “Farewell” three times over the open grave. The number of rifles used is proscribed by the rank of the servicemember. The three volleys is from the Roman tradition. > > (and dear God NO, you NEVER call a rifle a “gun”…HORRORS!) > ~VOW Sorry, VOW, but none of that is true. First, the 3-Volley Salute came from the old European war custom of halting the fight to collect the dead. After they were finished, three shots were fired to signal that all dead were collected and they were ready to resume fighting. The number of riflemen used is also not dependent on the servicemember’s rank. It has to do with manpower, availability of personnel, and the unit performing the service. Min and Max are prescribed, but that is it. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/26 "2012-12-27T06:09:24Z")
Cite for information on the 3 Volley Salute and 21 Gun Salute. > **[gunsalute.pdf](https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/celebrate/gunsalute.pdf)** ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/27 "2012-12-27T16:22:00Z")
To Bear: Looks like we’re both right: “The origin and significance of the military custom of firing rifle volleys at funerals is interesting. During the funeral rites of the Roman Army the casting of the earth THREE times upon the coffin constituted the burial. It was customary among the Romans to call the dead THREE times by name, which ended the funeral ceremony. As friends and relatives of the deceased departed they said “Vale”, or farewell, THREE times. Over time when firearms were introduced on the battlefield the custom of firing volleys was established to halt the fighting to remove the dead from the battlefield. Once each army had cleared its dead it would fire THREE volleys to indicate that the dead had been cared for and that they were ready to go back to the fight. Today, when a squad of soldiers fires THREE volleys over a grave, they are, in accordance with this old custom, bidding their dead comrade farewell.” The number three has always been considered a “magic” number, and many rituals throughout the world use the number three, or multiples of it. Roman soldiers began many traditions to bury their dead, because they were often far from home, and would not get the customary ceremonies performed by their family members. Fellow soldiers were considered to be “family,” and the troops would perform whatever acts they could to insure the safe passage of their fallen comrade into the next world. A way of commemorating a soldier was to engrave his name, and sometimes his military unit on his helmet. It was done in such a fashion that the list of names of previous helmet owners could be seen whenever the present owner marched in parades. In today’s military funeral, every little thing has historical significance. Like the ancient Romans, the military is “family” to the servicemember, and it is fitting that the honor guard comes together to bid farewell to a comrade. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/28 "2012-12-27T17:06:03Z")
What are you quoting? > [@echo7tango](#): > > My wife’s grandfather was a USAF veteran. His Honor Guard gave us the spent casings, but separately and not in the folded flag. I doubt the US Flag Code permits that (casings in the folded flag), but I don’t have a cite right now. Here you go: [QUOTE=Flag Code, §4(h)] The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/29 "2012-12-27T17:15:26Z")
To Really: I would think the Flag Code is referring to using the flag as a wrapper, or a sling to haul goods. The flag draping a casket is receiving/holding/delivering the body of a warrior home to be buried. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/30 "2012-12-27T17:27:23Z")
We’re talking about shell casings, not the body. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/31 "2012-12-27T19:51:11Z")
Yes, I know. The folded flag and the accompanying shell cases from the rifle salute are a tribute to the fallen warrior. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/32 "2012-12-27T20:38:45Z")
That doesn’t mean it’s not a violation of the Flag Code. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/33 "2012-12-27T21:45:56Z")
I precided over several military funerals while in the Army, we never did the shell thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/34 "2012-12-27T22:39:43Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > I precided over several military funerals while in the Army, we never did the shell thing. I’ve participated in over fifty of them. I’ve never done the shell thing as it is not in any FM, and I agree with RNATB, that it is not IAW US Flag Code. I _hear_ about it being done often enough, but the only people I have seen do it are the FW Honor Guard. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/35 "2012-12-28T01:58:48Z")
By “the shell thing”, do you mean specifically tucking them into the flag, or just any giving of the shells to the heirs at all? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923/36 "2012-12-28T02:12:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > By “the shell thing”, do you mean specifically tucking them into the flag, or just any giving of the shells to the heirs at all? I am referring to tucking them into the flag. I only assume Lanzy meant the same thing. The shells themselves were more often than not handed to the the next of kin, or the funeral director who would later give them to the next of kin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flying-w-military-funeral-flag-containing-spent-ammo-need-answer-fast/644923.md?page=1)