# FlyingRamenMonster, step on up and discuss your misogyny **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 2, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984 "2006-08-02T05:55:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/1 "2006-08-02T05:55:14Z")
I love threads recommending books, especially here on the SDMB, so imagine my surprise upon opening [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=382152) and reading: > [@](#): > > For some reason, I don’t tend to like books about women. I think it might be because male is the “default” gender for characters and female protagonists have to make a big show of how they’re sensitive and capable and empowered by single-handedly raising their son and caring for their ageing mother while keeping the family farm running after their divorce or something. But I am just rationalising here. You didn’t really expect open misogyny like this to go unmentioned, did you? Male is “the default gender for characters”? Since when? Complain about badly written female characters to your heart’s content, but seems like you’re barely rationalizing something far more disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/2 "2006-08-02T06:07:21Z")
> [@Selkie](#): > > You didn’t really expect open misogyny like this to go unmentioned, did you? How open can it be if nobody else sees it? I certainly don’t. Neither did anyone else in that thread. > [@](#): > > Male is “the default gender for characters”? Since when? He\* should have qualified that with an ‘In my experience’ or ‘In the books I read’ or something, but, then again, such qualifications should _always_ be assumed. > [@](#): > > Complain about badly written female characters to your heart’s content, but seems like you’re barely rationalizing something far more disturbing. I think you’re projecting, and I can probably find more support for my thesis than you can for yours. \*(Or she. Ever think of _that_, Smarty-Pants Sexism-Assumer? ;)) BTW, If you Pit someone I think it’s good manners to inform them in the thread that sparked it that you have done so. ---
**Author:** ![Anastasaeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Anastasaeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anastasaeon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/3 "2006-08-02T06:11:05Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > \*(Or she. Ever think of _that_, Smarty-Pants Sexism-Assumer? ;)) **FlyingRamenMonster** is indeed a young lady, just for future reference. (17 and in college, I think? And she’s a damn talented artist, too.) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/4 "2006-08-02T06:14:55Z")
To say that male is the “default gender” of protagonists in novels is not sexist, but rather, is to point out that the culture which produce these novels is sexist. Similarly, to point out and complain about the fact that writers feel like they need to justify the use of a female as a protagonist in a novel is not sexist, but is to criticize the sexism of the culture producing these novels. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/5 "2006-08-02T06:20:46Z")
Yeah, that. I’m not sexist, some my my best friends are women. ::d&r:: ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/6 "2006-08-02T06:24:18Z")
Mention in original thread duly made. > [@Frylock](#): > > Similarly, to point out and complain about the fact that writers feel like they need to justify the use of a female as a protagonist in a novel is not sexist, but is to criticize the sexism of the culture producing these novels. And if the post had said “I don’t tend to enjoy books where a female protagonist has to make a big show of how they’re sensitive and capable and empowered by single-handedly raising their son and caring for their ageing mother while keeping the family farm running after their divorce or something” I wouldn’t have blinked an eye. In fact, I probably would have agreed, because that’s usually a sign of poor, or at least unconvincing, writing. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/7 "2006-08-02T06:30:21Z")
> [@Selkie](#): > > Mention in original thread duly made. > > And if the post had said “I don’t tend to enjoy books where a female protagonist has to make a big show of how they’re sensitive and capable and empowered by single-handedly raising their son and caring for their ageing mother while keeping the family farm running after their divorce or something” I wouldn’t have blinked an eye. In fact, I probably would have agreed, because that’s usually a sign of poor, or at least unconvincing, writing. I’m missing something. I don’t see a significant difference between what you’ve written here and what you’ve quoted above from FlyingRamenMonster’s post. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/8 "2006-08-02T06:40:13Z")
There’s a significant difference between “female protagonists generally” and “female protagonists who written in such a way that their writers feel the need to make them saints.” The latter is a slice indicative (generally) of a specific type of bad writing that is a subset of a much larger pool of female protagonists. A large subset, I’ll grant you, but not all female protagonists are written this way. **Derleth** , note that my post was gender-neutral. Women can be misogynists, too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stark_Raven_Mad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/9 "2006-08-02T08:45:58Z")
She was expressing a reading preference, for Og’s sake. No need to get all flustered like that. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/10 "2006-08-02T08:50:49Z")
FlyingRamenMonster, I agree with you. I tend to prefer male characters over female characters presented in films, comics, and books because they get to do the cool stuff. When I was little, I wanted to be Indiana Jones - not the dumb bitch hanging off his arm and screaming every five seconds or, even worse, Laura Croft. It seemed that if a female was kickass, then she had to be hypersexual. This started to change as I grew up, but it is still the overwhelming majority. For this reason, I prefer stories with male protagonists. My feelings arise not out of misogyny but feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/11 "2006-08-02T09:16:16Z")
> [@Selkie](#): > > There’s a significant difference between “female protagonists generally” and “female protagonists who written in such a way that their writers feel the need to make them saints.” The latter is a slice indicative (generally) of a specific type of bad writing that is a subset of a much larger pool of female protagonists. A large subset, I’ll grant you, but not all female protagonists are written this way. > > **Derleth** , note that my post was gender-neutral. Women can be misogynists, too. 🙂 We can quibble about the semantic distinction between what percentage of a whole is implied by “generally,” as opposed to “a very large subset,” (which would be boring), but even if Ramen went crazy and said “I have NEVER met a female hero to my liking,” how does the different suggest anything hateful about actual women? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/12 "2006-08-02T09:25:55Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > To say that male is the “default gender” of protagonists in novels is not sexist, but rather, is to point out that the culture which produce these novels is sexist. Exactly. **FlyingRamenMonster** put into words something that I have often thought myself. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/13 "2006-08-02T09:33:03Z")
Interesting article regarding Philip Roth’s characterizations of women in his articles: [http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/reviews/critics/chi-0605310232jun01,1,5595905.story?page=1&coll=chi-ent\_critics-hed](http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/reviews/critics/chi-0605310232jun01,1,5595905.story?page=1&coll=chi-ent_critics-hed) I have no intention of setting his books down because of it, but I find it extremely revealing nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/14 "2006-08-02T09:35:16Z")
**FlyingRamenMonster** does make some excellent points (I’ll confess I didn’t know FRM was female until recently!) Certainly, in my own experiences female protaganists seem to be either Hyper Kickass Superwomen who are out to prove themselves, or stereotypical girly women who bitch about broken nails and scream whenever they see a spider… ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/15 "2006-08-02T09:44:08Z")
In his _books_…not _articles_. D’oh! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/16 "2006-08-02T10:49:40Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > \*(Or she. Ever think of _that_, Smarty-Pants Sexism-Assumer? ;)) There wouldn’t be male-chauvinistic guys if it wasn’t for male-chauvinistic moms. Moms are usually female. I don’t see Monster’s comment as chauvinistic; badly phrased maybe, like the OP itself said (which I find funny). ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/17 "2006-08-02T11:30:31Z")
Even if \*\*FlyingRamenMonster’s \*\* remarks \*were \* misogynistic (which, in my opinion, they were not), they still wouldn’t be nearly the most misogynistic remarks I’ve read here on any given day. There are several posters here who have genuine and oft-mentioned contempt for women. Save your vitriol for them. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/18 "2006-08-02T12:53:23Z")
I don’t think those remarks were misogynistic at all. But, then again, I get accused of hating women on a regular basis around here. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/19 "2006-08-02T13:02:23Z")
For me, saying that you don’t like the conventional female protagonist of stories is not misogynistic at all. It seems to me that **FylyingRamenMonster** shares opinions with many feminists – but in this post-feminist world, she probably doesn’t indentify as a feminist, but takes this sort of stuff for granted. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/20 "2006-08-02T13:03:00Z")
(sigh) Chicks… Can’t live with 'em, can’t write a good story about 'em. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984.md?page=2)