# FlyingRamenMonster, step on up and discuss your misogyny **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 2, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984 "2006-08-02T05:55:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/21 "2006-08-02T13:14:16Z")
My dictionary sez > [@](#): > > Misogyny: the hatred of women by men > > Sexist: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. I think the statement smacks of sexism but hardly misogyny (and not because the offender is a female, either) ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/22 "2006-08-02T13:16:05Z")
How does it “smack of sexism”? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/23 "2006-08-02T13:23:19Z")
Add me to the list of agreeing with FlyingRamenMonster. Authors just don’t seem to know how to handle women. Men can go out and do all kinds of shit and never once feel the need to be sensitive or caring, just as she says. Men get to all the cool stuff. Women always, always have to bring emotions into it, in books anyway. That’s fine with me, I suppose it may even be true to life sometimes, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it! ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/24 "2006-08-02T13:43:00Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] How does it “smack of sexism”? [/QUOTE] The statement > [@](#): > > female protagonists have to make a big show of how they’re sensitive and capable and empowered by single-handedly raising their son and caring for their ageing mother while keeping the family farm running after their divorce or something is a stereotypical statement regarding women, fictional though they may be. No? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/25 "2006-08-02T13:50:21Z")
[QUOTE=Hey you!] The statement … is a stereotypical statement regarding women, fictional though they may be. No? [/QUOTE] Yes, it’s a statement about stereotypical female characters in fiction. It strikes me as the sort of statement that a feminist literary critic might make (though perhaps in slightly different language). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/26 "2006-08-02T14:13:01Z")
[QUOTE=Hey you!] The statement is a stereotypical statement regarding women, fictional though they may be. No? [/QUOTE] So that would make the sexism fictional as well. No? I mean from your definition– \*Sexist: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. \*What women are being stereotyped,etc.? Are you suggesting that fictional characters are real? ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/27 "2006-08-02T14:14:46Z")
[QUOTE=Hey you!] The statement is a stereotypical statement regarding women, fictional though they may be. No? [/QUOTE] No. It’s not a statement about women at all, it’s a critique of how women are portrayed. It’s exactly the sort of critique one would expect a feminist literary critic to make, that there is a lack of believable strong female characters. To muddle the two makes for quite a mess… for example, if I were to say that the cartoons of the 1930s and 1940s have clownish, ignorant representations of black people, it would take an extreme and willful misreading to state that I am suggesting black people themselves are (or were) clownish and ignorant, or to say that there’s no difference between the former and the latter. Put another way, if I were to say that the dinosaurs in Jurrassic Park were “unrealistic,” it would be a leap of logic to say that I was some kind of fundamentalist nutjob who didn’t believe in dinosaurs. Put yet another way, if I say I spilled coffee on my map of Central Tennessee, I am hardly suggesting that Nashville has been flooded with hot black liquid. One is map, one is territory. What we say about the representation of a thing is in no way said about the thing it represents. I hope that clears things up. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/28 "2006-08-02T15:00:09Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Interesting article regarding Philip Roth’s characterizations of women in his articles: [http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/reviews/critics/chi-0605310232jun01,1,5595905.story?page=1&coll=chi-ent\_critics-hed](http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/reviews/critics/chi-0605310232jun01,1,5595905.story?page=1&coll=chi-ent_critics-hed) I have no intention of setting his books down because of it, but I find it extremely revealing nonetheless. [/QUOTE] That’s a fascinating article, and i certainly agree that Roth’s female characters are never as complex or interesting as his male characters. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/29 "2006-08-02T15:42:21Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] No. It’s not a statement about women at all, it’s a critique of how women are portrayed. It’s exactly the sort of critique one would expect a feminist literary critic to make, that there is a lack of believable strong female characters. To muddle the two makes for quite a mess… for example, if I were to say that the cartoons of the 1930s and 1940s have clownish, ignorant representations of black people, it would take an extreme and willful misreading to state that I am suggesting black people themselves are (or were) clownish and ignorant, or to say that there’s no difference between the former and the latter. Put another way, if I were to say that the dinosaurs in Jurrassic Park were “unrealistic,” it would be a leap of logic to say that I was some kind of fundamentalist nutjob who didn’t believe in dinosaurs. Put yet another way, if I say I spilled coffee on my map of Central Tennessee, I am hardly suggesting that Nashville has been flooded with hot black liquid. One is map, one is territory. What we say about the representation of a thing is in no way said about the thing it represents. I hope that clears things up. [/QUOTE] I get what you’re saying and I agree. I _was_ muddling that notion and the one that follows… I think it’s inaccurate to say (as FlyingRaman mentioned) that in the world of literary fiction, women are uniformly portrayed as “sensitive and capable and empowered by single-handedly etc. etc.” It may be her experience based on the novels she gravitates to. But does the stereotype she uses apply itself to the vast majority of **fictional** female characters? ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/30 "2006-08-02T15:44:53Z")
We can only conclude that she hasn’t been exposed to a wide variety of such books, and perhaps generate a list of such books. I’ll start with To Kill a Mockingbird. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/31 "2006-08-02T16:56:29Z")
Maybe **FlyingRamenMonster** just doesn’t care for Chick Lit. I can’t say that I blame her for that. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/32 "2006-08-02T17:08:39Z")
I have to agree with **FlyingRamenMonster’s** assessment of women in popular literature. They are never anything like women I know in real life. They are either hyper-sensitive or they are so hard-boiled you would think they were men. I can never relate to them, and I am pretty much your average female type. The problem isn’t that **FlyingRamenMonster** doesn’t like women, it’s that she doesn’t like women the way they are portrayed in novels. I don’t think she was saying that SHE BELIEVES ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/33 "2006-08-02T17:09:58Z")
I have to agree with **FlyingRamenMonster’s** assessment of women in popular literature. They are never anything like women I know in real life. They are either hyper-sensitive or they are so hard-boiled you would think they were men. I can never relate to them, and I am pretty much your average female type. The problem isn’t that **FlyingRamenMonster** doesn’t like women, it’s that she doesn’t like women the way they are portrayed in novels. I don’t think she was saying that SHE BELIEVES that male SHOULD BE the default gender…she is lamenting the fact that this is so, and that the subsequent way that women are portrayed irritates her. Can’t say I blame her one bit for this. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/34 "2006-08-02T17:11:04Z")
Have no idea what just happened…can a mod delete my first (partial) post? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/35 "2006-08-02T17:50:52Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Have no idea what just happened…can a mod delete my first (partial) post? [/QUOTE] Yep. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/36 "2006-08-02T18:06:55Z")
[QUOTE=Giraffe] Yep. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Sexist bastard. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/37 "2006-08-02T19:50:25Z")
[QUOTE=Selkie] I love threads recommending books, especially here on the SDMB, so imagine my surprise upon opening [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=382152) and reading: You didn’t really expect open misogyny like this to go unmentioned, did you? Male is “the default gender for characters”? Since when? Complain about badly written female characters to your heart’s content, but seems like you’re barely rationalizing something far more disturbing. [/QUOTE] This is a “Whooosh” PITing, right? 😕 'Cause everyone sez I can’t seem to be able to detect a “Whoosh”, and that may be true. But- this is a "Whoosh, right? 😕 :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/38 "2006-08-02T19:54:39Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] This is a “Whooosh” PITing, right? 😕 'Cause everyone sez I can’t seem to be able to detect a “Whoosh”, and that may be true. But- this is a "Whoosh, right? 😕 [/QUOTE] I thought a “whoosh” is generally unintentional. To be “whooshed” is simply to fail to get the point of a post, right? So the “whoosher” doesn’t need to be actually trying to “whoosh” in order for a “whoosh” to occur. And it just follows from my definition of a “whoosh” that the one “whooshed” can’t detect the whoosh–because to detech the whoosh would require that he understand the point of the post. But maybe I’ve got the idea of a “whoosh” wrong. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/39 "2006-08-02T20:32:07Z")
I mentioned this to a friend of mine who’s visiting us, and she and I both agreed with **FlyingRamenMonster**. Male characters can just be _people_, and the story doesn’t necessarily need to have something to do with MEN and MANLINESS and MASCULINITY conceptually. Female characters generally aren’t just _X_, they’re a _female X_, or a _woman_ managing to do _X_ despite societal expectations/single motherhood/abusive husband/traumatic divorce/whatever. Oh, and my friend is “a huge dyke”[sup]_[/sup] by the way, in case that gives her opinions on this any more credibility. [sup]_ Actually, she’s quite small.[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984/40 "2006-08-02T21:56:11Z")
Damn, **Selkie**. You sure got your panties in a twist over nothing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flyingramenmonster-step-on-up-and-discuss-your-misogyny/366984.md?page=3)