# FN 5.7 -or- Five-SeveN -- How effective against armor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779 "2005-01-26T16:51:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/1 "2005-01-26T16:51:27Z")
Our sheriff’s deputy just came in and showed me a dire notice from the department announcing that the FN 5.7 or Five-SeveN® has hit the street legally and can punch through kevlar vests, the trauma plate (or shock plate?), and puncture military body armor at 300 meters. I definately had to call bullshit on that last claim and I have grave doubts about the first two. My googling returned an article from American Handgunner (sorry lost the page) that claims to have tested it against level IIA kevlar soft body armor, and to have punctured it. The second two claims about penetrating the trauma plate and the military body armor at 300 meters still leaves me in serious doubt. I find nothing that answers the question whether the second two claims are bogus. Can anybody give me the Straight Dope? If so, please do. Thanks much! ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/2 "2005-01-26T17:18:16Z")
According to their website, the same round fired from their P90 carbine, will penetrate body armor with ballistic plates. Don’t know if the same is true for the handgun. I’d expect less performance because of the significantly shorter barrel. This is their military round (SS190). The round available for non military use is a soft tip and is not supposed to be able to penetrate (SS192). I can’t link directly to the page, but if you use this URL: [http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm](http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm) then select “small arms” then “5.7x28mm System” then “ammunition”. The MV of the SS190 is 715 M/S out of the P90 while the SS192 is 640 M/S out of the pistol. The website says SS190 penetration at 200 M, not 300M. Not significat at street ranges. Of course a Tompson Contender chambered for .223 or one of the other small “rifle” cartridges can do as much or more damage. Street criminals tend not to use expensive and exotic handguns. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/3 "2005-01-26T17:45:09Z")
The handgun is available for sale. It is also extremely expensive. The ammunition available for civilian sales is not the armor piercing ammo that gets so much publicity. There is at least one member over at [The High Road](http://www.thehighroad.org/) who has one. You can search the site and see his reviews. Basically, he reports that it is interesting, with a high kewl factor, but the civilian version of the ammo is no great shakes. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/4 "2005-01-26T17:46:35Z")
Military soft body armor, The Interceptor, exceeds NIJ Level IIIA protection. The FN Five-SeveN® will penetrate this with no problems. It will not, however, penetrate the hard Armor Inserts. If your department issued a “Dire Notice”, then they are over reacting. This pistol has been commercially available over a year now. There firearm is not a significant threat to a street officer. The ammo for this pistol is ridiculously expen$ive and it’s hard to come by!! 1000 – ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/5 "2005-01-26T18:01:33Z")
Sorry… didn’t mean to hit submit. The ammunition is more than just expen$ive!! It is so expensive that no criminal in his right mind would fuss with one. Not even a Rich Drug Lord or something. For a case of 2000 rounds, the best price I can find is around $615!!! That’s three times more expensice than 9mm!!! I could pick up a box of 100 rounds of 9mm at WAL-MART for less than 9 bucks! 50 rounds of 5.7 costs about $18.50, and you CANT find it at WAL-MART. Or practically anywhere for that matter. There are NO other manufacturers producing the 5.7 round at this time. And it will never be profitable for them to do so in the future, IMHO. So the only way to get more ammo is to buy it from an FN dealer, or a person with connections to FN or one of their distributors or something. There are many ammo manufacturers out there. And there competition, along with the large availability and popularity of other cartridges keeps the prices down. FN can charge pretty much whatever they want for their ammo. And you can’t get it anywhere else. This doesn’t hurt their sales for their intended market. An agency normally needs to send something out on a bid to get the lowest possible cost on something. But when there is a “sole-source” situation, the agency will pay whatever it costs. These guns will not be hitting the street as “Saturday Night Specials” anytime soon. If EVER!!! Even if one COULD find the pistol for sale, he would find it very difficult to buy more ammo. And that’s assuming he’s got money waste on it to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/6 "2005-01-26T18:12:16Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > This is their military round (SS190). The round available for non military use is a soft tip and is not supposed to be able to penetrate (SS192). I cannot find from where you’re deducing this. The SS190 is as available as the SS192. AFAIK, the purpose of the SS192 is to reduce the damage done to the steel baffels at ranges. This reduces the wear and tear and maintenance fees for the range. But the SS190 is Standard Ball ammo. There’s nothing special about that. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/7 "2005-01-26T18:22:31Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The handgun is available for sale. It is also extremely expensive. The ammunition available for civilian sales is not the armor piercing ammo that gets so much publicity. Again, I’m not sure where this information is coming from. The 5.7 round is not “armor piercing”. Armor Piercing would mean that it has a hard steel or tungsten penetrator inside the round. FN may be producing such a round, but I am not aware of it, and it is certainly not the SS190 – Standard Ball round. And if they did make such a round, the US Militart would still stick with the SS190. All our M16 bullets are Standard Ball Ammo – not “armor piercing”. But the 5.7 ammo is “rifle-style” and WILL penetrate soft body armor. Don’t freak-out, people. All rifle rounds will penetrate soft body armor. There’s nothing special about this particular quality. There are pistols that will fire cheaper and more available rifle rounds on the market. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/8 "2005-01-26T18:46:47Z")
Bear Nenno, I don’t want to drag this down into GD but the prices you give while not cheap are not particularly expensive. 9mm Parabellum is cheap becaue it’s sold in huge volumes compared to a specialty item such as 5.7mm. The gun itself retails for about a thousand dollars. Not cheap but not outrageous either. About the same as a mildly hotrodded 1911. My local shop has one as do plenty of other shops in Phoenix. I don’t expect it to be a common crime gun either but the gun is far from unobtainable. Of course I’m sure that price for ammo is the non-AP variety. The AP military version is not only hard to get but illegal for a dealer to sell to civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/9 "2005-01-26T18:48:09Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Again, I’m not sure where this information is coming from. The 5.7 round is not “armor piercing”. Armor Piercing would mean that it has a hard steel or tungsten penetrator inside the round. FN may be producing such a round, but I am not aware of it, and it is certainly not the SS190 – Standard Ball round. And if they did make such a round, the US Militart would still stick with the SS190. All our M16 bullets are Standard Ball Ammo – not “armor piercing”. > > But the 5.7 ammo is “rifle-style” and WILL penetrate soft body armor. Don’t freak-out, people. All rifle rounds will penetrate soft body armor. There’s nothing special about this particular quality. There are pistols that will fire cheaper and more available rifle rounds on the market. The standard round for the M-16 does contain a steel core. > [@](#): > > "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain > (q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps > (q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical > velocity 15 feet from the M16A2’s muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy > requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four > MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an > M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge > SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623 > yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400 > yards, and about half the time at 500 yards. The 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO > rounds will penetrate it reliably out to 700 yards or more. Nominal > ballistics for M193 and M855 Ball rounds are given in an accompanying > table. The tables were constructed from the latest data supplied by the > U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground, > Maryland. from the January/February issue of Rifle magazine From the same source: > [@](#): > > "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55 > grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 > inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement > from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200 > yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA). > “Statistically average” M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius, > which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. Velocity from an M16 rifle or > pressure test barrel usually runs about 3,200 fps due to gas loss through > the port. Accuracy is typically around 2 to 2+ MOA from an M16A1 rifle at > ranges of 100 to 300 yards. M193 ammunition is suitable for use in 1 twist > in 12 inches or faster twists. While commercial sporting rifles in this > caliber usually have one in 14 rifling, the M193 boat tailed bullet is > barely stabilized with that rate of twist at ambient temperatures, and will > not stabilize at all when the air temperature drops below freezing. Check [here](http://www.impactguns.com/store/fn_5_7_ss192_ammo.html) and note that this merchant is selling JHP ammo and that he refers to it as training ammo for sale to the general public. Same-same at this [auction.](http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976328128.htm) This site, on the other hand, clearly lists the standard ball as [AP](http://www.botac.com/fn1.html). Plus, of course, my fellow member at the High Road has said as much. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/10 "2005-01-26T18:51:59Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Of course I’m sure that price for ammo is the non-AP variety. The AP military version is not only hard to get but illegal for a dealer to sell to civilians. I should correct myself. I am not positive that the SS190 ammo is defined as AP by the BATF only pretty sure that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/11 "2005-01-26T19:09:06Z")
Note that the BATF’s own [page about the FN 5.7](http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm) notes that the ammo commercially sold is not armor piercing but does list an armor piercing round as one that FN produces. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/12 "2005-01-26T19:16:22Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > But the 5.7 ammo is “rifle-style” and WILL penetrate soft body armor. Don’t freak-out, people. All rifle rounds will penetrate soft body armor. There’s nothing special about this particular quality. There are pistols that will fire cheaper and more available rifle rounds on the market. Right- although they are all rather rare, there are many such pistols on the market now- and many have been for decades- and they havn’t been used for “cop killing”. Note that also the good old “Mauser mechanical pistol” (the one that Rocketman was shown carrying and that Churchill carried during the Boer war) is also notorious for it’s ability to penetrate armour. It’s been around for over a hundred years! The whole “cop killer bullet” thing was a scare made up by one lying-ass anti-gun Congressman. There were indeed such bullets- made to penetrate vests- but they were made by a company that woudl ONLY sell them to Police depts. To that do note “The Five-seveN is available from FN for government or law enforcement sales only.” ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/13 "2005-01-26T19:35:30Z")
There is a lot of misinformation about AP ammunition. I recently saw the movie _The Jackal_ which has a line about an enemy using Teflon on his bullets to defeat armor. This is a comlete falsehood as the only Teflon used on bullets was to keep the guns from wearing out, not to help penetrate armor. A google on “KTW bullets” turned up this site, [http://www.guncite.com/gun\_control\_gcgvcopk.html](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html) , which explains how the myth of the cop killer bullet came about. The commonly available FN 5.7 ammo all appears to use a ballistic tip bullet and the BATF site specfically mentions a Hornady V-max bullet in the SS-196. The metal part of the bullet is constructed as a hollowpoint but has a pointed plastic tip to give it better aerodynamics for long rifle shots. The bullet is designed to expand on impact which makes it much worse for armor penetration than an ordinary FMJ spitzer bullet. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/14 "2005-01-26T19:35:35Z")
Dunn’s Sporting Goods, in St. Charles MO, had the FN pistol in the case for sale when I was there a few months ago. $800±. And they had the ammo, the SS 192 round. After reading the ATF site linked by **Scumpup** it might have been the SS 196 round. I admit I didn’t look that closely, but they did say it wasn’t the military round. **Bear\_Nenno** one of the many gun boards I read/participate in had some discussion on this a while back. Sorry, no cite, but the story was that only the “non-military” round was going to be available for the general public. And this is the ammo that’s available at the local store. I do agree that it’s “much ado about nothing”. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/15 "2005-01-26T19:36:55Z")
I know, thanks are implied. However: thanks! Where we live it is not an issue of Saturday Night Specials. Where we live there is a concern about militia & property rights nuts who _would_ spend the money for an übercool pistol that could punch through body armor and who would buy ammo for it and who would be a potential threat over something as stupid as a shed in a front yard. That does not mean that the Sheriff wasn’t overreacting or that it wasn’t irresponsible for him to stress out his officers without doing proper research or that there aren’t lots of guns that will pass through body armor with complete ease. Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/16 "2005-01-26T19:38:49Z")
Man, what the hell. Thanks for the cite, **Scumpup**. This is pissing me off right now though. I am aware of an AP 5.56 round, the M995. I didn’t think that standard ball ammo came aromor piercing as well. I’m gonna sit down and an FM or something. . . Also, **Padeye** , I don’t think there’s any debate. 1,000 bucks is pretty cheap for a competition shooter or avid gun lover, but criminals are usually neither. I’d like to see a police agency with an Infinity Arms race gun on the shelf in the evidence locker! And they are obtainable. My shop has over a dozen waiting to sell. And pleanty of ammo in stock. But that place is a rare breed. So, what’s the point of an AP designation if NATO Ball is also AP and contains a penetrating core? I thought “Ball” and “AP” were two different things. WTF ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/17 "2005-01-26T20:11:36Z")
**Bear\_Nenno** , splitting hairs maybe. I know it isn’t cheap but neither is so outrageously expensive that, if I may paraphrase, not even a rich drug lord would bother with one. Really, I didn’t know the price dropped to $800. That tells me there is little demand other than those who had to be the first kid on the block with one. I heard a lot of talk about them in the fall when people were anticipating 20 round magazines again being available but since then I bet most have been gathering dust on the dealer’s shelf. Ball ammo generally means a full metal jacket, no exposed lead at exposed part of the bullet - standard military ammo. The primary reason for it is that this type feeds most reliably in autoloading weapons. Soft leads tips and hollowpoints can hang up or be damaged which additionaly hurts ballistic performance. Armor piercing bullets will have a full or partial core of material harder and sometimes more dense than lead such as steel, bronze, brass, tungstgen or depleted uranium. The copper jacket is retained or a teflon coat used because it is soft enough to be swaged into the rifling grooves and not damage the weapon. AP ammunition is normally not legal to sell to civilians. The law makes exceptions for surplus US 30 caliber, I have some for my WWII vintage M1, and 5.56mm SS109 (is that correct?) which is not actually defined as AP as the steel part of the core is just a tiny portion at the tip. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/18 "2005-01-26T20:53:37Z")
**Padeye** , as far as the pistol and criminals thing. Yeah, Drug Lord thing was an exageration. It apparantly came out differently than I meant. I need to watch the unnecessary hyperbole. We’re in total agreement on this one, though. Which is to say, I agree with what _you’ve_ said. > [@](#): > > The law makes exceptions for surplus US 30 caliber, I have some for my WWII vintage M1, and 5.56mm SS109 (is that correct?) which is not actually defined as AP as the steel part of the core is just a tiny portion at the tip. So then the M855 (SS109) is _not_ AP?? **Scumpup** ’s cite describes it as having a “hardened steel penetrator”. But you’re calling it just a “tiny portion at the tip”. When I think of steel penetrator and AP, I think of the long hard steel cores in AP 7.62 rounds. If the M855 just has some hard metal in the tip and is not considered AP, then I’ll at least be put at ease. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/19 "2005-01-26T21:02:26Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > **Padeye** , as far as the pistol and criminals thing. Yeah, Drug Lord thing was an exageration. It apparantly came out differently than I meant. I need to watch the unnecessary hyperbole. We’re in total agreement on this one, though. Which is to say, I agree with what _you’ve_ said. > So then the M855 (SS109) is _not_ AP?? **Scumpup** ’s cite describes it as having a “hardened steel penetrator”. But you’re calling it just a “tiny portion at the tip”. When I think of steel penetrator and AP, I think of the long hard steel cores in AP 7.62 rounds. If the M855 just has some hard metal in the tip and is not considered AP, then I’ll at least be put at ease. Go [here](http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#ss109m855) to learn about 5.56 ammo. There are lots of illustratios, including the internal structure of the SS109 projectile. Padeye is right about a good many things, but the steel core is much more than a little piece at the tip. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779/20 "2005-01-26T23:07:09Z")
From your link: > [@](#): > > SS-109 bullets used in M855 have a steel tip under the jacket, but they have a lead core That’s basically what I thought from the begining. I was getting nervous there for a second. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fn-5-7-or-five-seven-how-effective-against-armor/286779.md?page=2)