# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/201 "2009-05-31T21:44:27Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > OK, how about this. Why did he “finish him off” if he was no longer a threat? We can only speculate why he did what he did. What is clear to me is that he made a conscious decision to shoot this person despite no longer believing that he was a threat. Maybe he is like Argent Towers and thinks all robbers should be dead. Maybe this was his 10th robbery and he had enough. Maybe he was having a shitty day and wanted to lash out. I don’t know why he did what he did, but I am confident that it was an intentional calculated act to kill this person, not a self defense reaction. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/202 "2009-05-31T21:46:57Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Possibly. See, I’m not completely sold on what the guy did. He certainly would have made it easier on himself had he not threw more lead at the situation. That being said, I can see how, quite easily, Ersland could have seen a still existent threat. The question isn’t whether he could seen a still existent threat. The question is whether he did, and his actions show that he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/203 "2009-05-31T21:47:11Z")
> [@DfrntBreign](#): > > I’m not really trying to change anyone’s mind, but it does seem to me that if (and it’s a big if) Ersland was the only one shooting and the dead guy was both unarmed and unconscious, then his claim of self-defense is at least somewhat weakened. I think people have been too influenced by hollywood, they expect the good guys to shoot to disable and then forgive the bad guys. In real life someone in the middle of an armed robbery is a threat as long as they are breathing. I don’t believe death should be the punishment for armed robbery, but i have absolutely no problem with someone making sure they and their property are safe by whatever means necessary even if it means the perp takes 5 shots while unconscious in the process. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/204 "2009-05-31T21:49:34Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > In real life someone in the middle of an armed robbery is a threat as long as they are breathing. This is obviously false. Had Ersland tied up Parsons before shooting him, according to you Ersland would still be justified in putting five more shots into him. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/205 "2009-05-31T21:53:42Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > This is obviously false. Had Ersland tied up Parsons before shooting him, according to you Ersland would still be justified in putting five more shots into him. Why would he risk tying him up when he can just shoot him instead? Tying him up then shooting him is just a ridiculous suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/206 "2009-05-31T21:54:13Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > This is obviously false. Had Ersland tied up Parsons before shooting him, according to you Ersland would still be justified in putting five more shots into him. Not only is that false, it ignores the fact that the robbery was over. One guy unconscious on the ground, the other fled the premises. Robbery over. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/207 "2009-05-31T21:55:13Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Why would he risk tying him up when he can just shoot him instead? Tying him up then shooting him is just a ridiculous suggestion. That wasn’t my point. My point was that ‘still breathing’ does not qualify to make someone a threat except in the most absurd hypothetical sense that had him coming round and pulling out the concealed gun that he didn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/208 "2009-05-31T21:56:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Not only is that false, it ignores the fact that the robbery was over. One guy unconscious on the ground, the other fled the premises. Robbery over. Unless unconscious guy wakes up, notices hes been shot in the head, pulls a gun and shoots you. Why risk the life of a law abiding citizen to make sure a criminal survives a crime? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/209 "2009-05-31T22:00:28Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > That wasn’t my point. My point was that ‘still breathing’ does not qualify to make someone a threat except in the most absurd hypothetical sense that had him coming round and pulling out the concealed gun that he didn’t have. I fail to see how thats an absurd assumption to make of someone who just tried to rob you. I would call it a very likely posibility not an absurd assumption. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/210 "2009-05-31T22:01:53Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Unless unconscious guy wakes up, notices hes been shot in the head, pulls a gun and shoots you. A possibility easily handed by standing there and pointing a gun at him in case it happens. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Why risk the life of a law abiding citizen to make sure a criminal survives a crime? Because there was no risk to Ersland if he had simply stood there pointing his gun at Parsons, ready to shoot if Parsons moved for the concealed weapon that he didn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/211 "2009-05-31T22:03:08Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I fail to see how thats an absurd assumption to make of someone who just tried to rob you. I would call it a very likely posibility not an absurd assumption. Well, we may have to disagree here. I think someone shot in the head, lying unconscious on the floor, hands empty and visible, and with no gun in sight, isn’t really an immediate threat to one’s life that requires five more bullets to eliminate. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/212 "2009-05-31T22:04:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > For all I know, my neighbors could be about to blow up my house with a bazooka. Am I justified in opening fire on them? If you see your neighbors laying charges around the foundations of your house, or if you see them tossing grenades towards your windows, if you see them aiming bazookas at your house, you are absolutely justified in killing every damn one of them. If your neighbor brandishes a stick of dynamite at you while holding a lighter to the fuse, you are absolutely justified in killing him. If he says to you, I’m gonna blow up your house, you are not absolutely justified in killing him. If he has made similar threats before and if you know he has recently stocked up on dynamite, and has prior convictions for blowing up his neighbors houses, you would be justified in killing him. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/213 "2009-05-31T22:08:42Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > A possibility easily handed by standing there and pointing a gun at him in case it happens.Because there was no risk to Ersland if he had simply stood there pointing his gun at Parsons, ready to shoot if Parsons moved for the concealed weapon that he didn’t have. Its very easy to say shit like this in retrospective. The truth is you don’t know if thats safe or not, you don’t know if the other guy won’t come back, you don’t know if the injured one isn’t going go crazy when he realizes hes been shot. I don’t get it, why should he accept any risk at all? i know i wouldn’t, and i find it ridiculous that anyone can condemn the actions of a man whos life was in danger. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/214 "2009-05-31T22:14:41Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Its very easy to say shit like this in retrospective. The truth is you don’t know if thats safe or not, you don’t know if the other guy won’t come back, you don’t know if the injured one isn’t going go crazy when he realizes hes been shot. I don’t get it, why should he accept any risk at all? i know i wouldn’t, and i find it ridiculous that anyone can condemn the actions of a man whos life was in danger. Yes, it is easy to say shit like this in retrospect _because it’s obvious shit_. Because Ersland obviously didn’t think his life was in danger. He didn’t remove the block they put in the doorway to keep it open; he didn’t lock the door; he stepped over Parsons with his gun at his side; he turned his back on Parsons; he left Parsons alone when he went into the backroom to get the second gun. And after putting a bunch of bullets into a not-always-immediately-fatal part of Parson’s body, he goes to call the police, rather than stop to ensure that Parsons actually isn’t breathing anymore. Can you honestly watch that video and say that Ersland thought Parsons was still a threat? If he’d done everything the same except fire the last five shots, he would look freakishly calm for someone who’d just been in a firefight. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/215 "2009-05-31T22:14:56Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I find it ridiculous that anyone can condemn the actions of a man whose life was in danger. Except that at that point, his life wasn’t really in danger any longer. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/216 "2009-05-31T22:19:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Except that at that point, his life wasn’t really in danger any longer. There was a live criminal in his store, i consider that being in danger. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/217 "2009-05-31T22:21:56Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Unless unconscious guy wakes up, notices hes been shot in the head, pulls a gun and shoots you. Why risk the life of a law abiding citizen to make sure a criminal survives a crime? Again, the question isn’t whether he should have felt his life was in danger. The question is whether he thought it was. If you look at his actions and body language, it is clear he no longer perceives a threat. Specific things: (1) Look at how fast he ran out of the store compared to when he came back in. He was booking it after that guy, and then came back at a comfortable walk. That isn’t how someone who thought he was in danger would move. (2) Look when he walks passed the guy. He doesn’t have the gun in a firing position, and he even moves it to his off hand. Not what you would do if you thought that guy was a threat. (3) Why would he go back to the threat, when he has an easy escape opportunity back to the office? (4) When he walked up to the guy, why would he get close and lean over if he thought he was still a threat? There are a half a dozen other actions in that clip that aren’t consistent with a man who thinks he is in danger. They are consistent with a man that feels safe enough to go back and finish off his attacker. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/218 "2009-05-31T22:25:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not only is it murder, but a competent DA would argue that going to get another gun constituted premeditation. Any idea about the amount of time between a moment of passion/fear for life/bad judgement and premeditation? I think you are right that Ersland defined that when he went to reload. But legally is there a measure? The pharmacist was absolutely wrong to shoot the robber again after the situation was under reasonable control. In my opinion. I am just wondering about the legal defense. If he had just continued to shoot as the robber fell that would be appropriate because you aren’t required to pause between shots when defending your life. Going back for execution, nope. I have a feeling that this will be one of those long drawn out cases. But I doubt if Ersland gets anything other than some degree of manslaughter. I am not endorsing that postion, it’s just what I think will occur. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/219 "2009-05-31T22:31:20Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > There was a live criminal in his store, i consider that being in danger. It sounds like you’re saying a live criminal deserves to be killed no matter what, or just in case. Watch all three angles again. He did not have to shoot him five times in the chest. Maybe one in the shoulder? The kid on the floor didn’t try to get up, that’s for sure. Unfortunately, DC, a live and unconscious criminal being near you does not justify a killing. It’s against the law. I think when Ersland shot him and detained him, he was a hero. After getting another gun and approaching him at point blank range does not justify the process. Cops are on the way, it won’t be long till the kid gets a 20 year sentence\* if he’s alive.\* ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/220 "2009-05-31T22:32:25Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > Any idea about the amount of time between a moment of passion/fear for life/bad judgement and premeditation? As I understand it, it’s not about a measure of time, it’s about whether or not you 1) make a decision, as opposed to a reaction, and 2) carry out intervening steps to carry out your decision, before the murder occurs. I recall reading a casebook about a man who came home to find his wife in bed with her lover. He went downstairs, got his gun, came back upstairs and killed them both. It was premeditated because he demonstrably made a decision to kill them, and then carried out his plan, including taking intermediate steps to effect it. If he had the gun in hand (thinking the sounds were from burglars, say) when he discovered them, and killed them, it would be second degree murder because it was a reaction. Because he went downstairs to get the gun, it was first degree murder. Likewise, the pharamacist left Parsons alone to get another gun. That’s the intervening step that demonstrates the decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=12)