# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/261 "2009-06-01T11:16:27Z")
Missed the edit window. One thing that is not clear is how long he took between going out the door, firing off his remaining bullets, and then re-entering the store, as very helpfully, there is a cut in the cctv footage I’ve seen, at that point, or so it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/262 "2009-06-01T11:17:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And I can’t begin to understand how you can’t muster any sympathy whatsoever for a kid who got shot 5 times while he was down. > > The two are not mutually exclusive, y’know ? > Yeah, yeah, I get it, he’s a criminal, the scum of the Earth and all that. He’s still a human being, i.e. someone like me. > > As has been already argued in the thread (and I happen to agree), once the robber is down and unconscious, the robbery is over. The crime has been averted, the danger’s mostly gone. Walking to get a second gun and pumping rounds into the prone perp isn’t self-defense, it’s an execution. > > **Besides, I would point out that the object of self-defense is _not_ to kill one’s assailant, but to prevent or stop the assault. To make the “bad guys” flee, or incapacitate them. Death is the possible yet always regrettable consequence of self-defense, not the goal thereof.** > > And that’s a multiple robbee speaking (although, I admit, never at gunpoint, since guns are outlawed in France and even outlaws don’t have them for the most part ;)) Excellent post, **Kobal2**. Your summation of self-defense is spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/263 "2009-06-01T11:22:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Missed the edit window. > > One thing that is not clear is how long he took between going out the door, firing off his remaining bullets, and then re-entering the store, as very helpfully, there is a cut in the cctv footage I’ve seen, at that point, or so it seems. It was just a few seconds. **Locrian** provided links to 3 security camera videos in [post #54](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11195872&postcount=54). The third link is to the camera outside the store and you can see Mr. Ersland depart the frame and return with no edit. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/264 "2009-06-01T11:30:02Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > This is why the liberals have such a hard time getting support, even though most of their positions are popular. Normal people can’t manage to muster sympathy for a guy who got shot six times while robbing a convenience store. I seriously just don’t understand how your sympathy goes to the robber, and not the guy who was robbed. Your first sentence seems to contradict itself. Your second sentence seems to be calling people who think Mr. Ersland committed an illegal act _abnormal_, and it attributes sympathy which has not, for the vast majority, been expressed in this thread. Not condoning Mr. Ersland’s actions is not the same as saying “poor poor robber”. I am sympathetic to Mr. Ersland’s plight as the intended victim of an armed robbery. But I cannot condone, nor justify, his actions with regard to shooting an unarmed, unconscious, immobile human being. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/265 "2009-06-01T11:56:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > …He was unarmed. Ersland didn’t know that > [@](#): > > … He was unconscious You don’t know that. You are basing that opinion off of the ME’s report. I guarantee you that Ersland will find an Expert witness who will say otherwise. > [@](#): > > … and immobile You don’t know that either. It takes about a second to draw a gun that is secured behind your back. Think you can react fast enough for that? Put yourself in a back brace like Ersland wears. Still think you can? > [@](#): > > …on the ground. The video is clear in only this respect. > [@](#): > > Mr. Ersland should have called the cops immediately upon re-rentering the store, and waited for them to come and secure the area, keeping his gun trained on the perp he had already shot. Yep. And Ersland, with the same 20/20 hindsight we all have here, should never have let the two in the store in the first place. He should have had duct tape and zip ties ready to tie people up, metal detectors at the door, a bigger caliber weapon… ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/266 "2009-06-01T12:28:26Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Ersland didn’t know that The guy’s hands were visible, and empty. > [@](#): > > You don’t know that. You are basing that opinion off of the ME’s report. I guarantee you that Ersland will find an Expert witness who will say otherwise. I also don’t know that "Ersland’ is his real name. I’m basing that off the news stories. But I go by the information I have, not the information I wish I had. > [@](#): > > You don’t know that either. It takes about a second to draw a gun that is secured behind your back. Think you can react fast enough for that? Put yourself in a back brace like Ersland wears. Still think you can? Yeah, I think if I already have my gun out and pointed at the unconscious, wounded man on the floor I can react faster than he can draw an imaginary or hypothetical gun, even if I was in a back brace with one arm in a cast and a peg leg, with a patch over one eye. > [@](#): > > The video is clear in only this respect. It’s clear in many other respects, not just this one respect. > [@](#): > > Yep. And Ersland, with the same 20/20 hindsight we all have here, should never have let the two in the store in the first place. He should have had duct tape and zip ties ready to tie people up, metal detectors at the door, a bigger caliber weapon… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/267 "2009-06-01T12:32:30Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > This is why the liberals have such a hard time getting support, even though most of their positions are popular. Normal people can’t manage to muster sympathy for a guy who got shot six times while robbing a convenience store. I seriously just don’t understand how your sympathy goes to the robber, and not the guy who was robbed. This is just ridiculous. Apart from the fact that this isn’t ‘liberals’ speaking, it’s humans - how can they have a hard time getting support but have popular positions? Further, I’d hope that ‘normal’ people are perfectly able to muster sympathy for anyone, regardless of circumstances. Your lack of logic goes further in assuming that sympathy for one party means no sympathy whatsoever for another. It is possible to think that this is ended in an illegal and immoral way - with the death of a fellow human - not only without suggesting that the dead man was innocent or that the shooter was entirely without cause. Reducing the argument to black and white, right and wrong is not only pointless but also completely at odds with your own legal system - and that of the ‘civilised’ Western world. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/268 "2009-06-01T13:21:31Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > This is why the liberals have such a hard time getting support, even though most of their positions are popular. Normal people can’t manage to muster sympathy for a guy who got shot six times while robbing a convenience store. I seriously just don’t understand how your sympathy goes to the robber, and not the guy who was robbed. First off, I’m not a liberal. Next, normal people would, or at least should, muster sympathy for someone who was no longer capable of commiting the robbery as he was laid out on the floor and was no longer a danger and therefore was killed, from the evidence at hand, pretty much in cold blood. The sympathy should go towards the victim of a murder. Finally, I have plenty of sympathy for the victim of the robbery all the way to the point where he was no longer a victim. Being the victim of a crime, which by the way is no longer in progress, is not license to commit a different and more serious crime. Seems to me that there are these nifty things called _laws_ that address this far better than I. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/269 "2009-06-01T13:30:43Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I’m surprised Monty is confusing vigilantism with self-defense, myself. At least, that’s what it looks like he’s doing. Monty, if someone tries to rob you, it is not vigilantism to shoot them. That would be what happened with the first shot. > [@](#): > > It’s vigilantism when you hunt them down _after_ the crime is committed, and act as judge, jury, and executioner. Or even as police. Vigilante behavior is pre-meditated, while self-defense is spontaneous. The non-spontaneous bit would be the next five shots, the ones fired after reloading. Maybe the next time the robbery victim decides to live out an episode of Law & Order, he’ll recall what happened in the end of that episode before acting on that decision. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/270 "2009-06-01T14:15:43Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **Monty** > Hmm, how does vigilantism go against fighting ignorance? That’s just your opinion, bubba. The abortion doctor was murdered because of vigilantism. Which do you prefer, a nation of laws or a nation were people are murdered because other people don’t like them? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/271 "2009-06-01T14:19:12Z")
_Left something out of my post above._ I’m not confusing jack. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/272 "2009-06-01T14:29:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The dead guy’s accomplice, the getaway driver and the guy who talked them into the robbery attempt have all been arrested and charged with capital murder, since the death occurred during the commission of a crime, as they should be. Please excuse my slight hijack, but I didn’t quite understand this (not being familiar with US law), does this mean that if a person is murdered while committing a crime his accomplices are implicated in the murder regardless of culpability or not? By culpability I mean that they did not actually kill him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/273 "2009-06-01T14:32:56Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Yep. And Ersland, with the same 20/20 hindsight we all have here, should never have let the two in the store in the first place. He should have had duct tape and zip ties ready to tie people up, metal detectors at the door, a bigger caliber weapon… Wow, an unconscious person, who can be easily shot if he shows any signs of not being unconscious, poses no threat requires 20/20 hindsight to figure out? You must think Ersland to be really incredibly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/274 "2009-06-01T14:42:05Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > Please excuse my slight hijack, but I didn’t quite understand this (not being familiar with US law), does this mean that if a person is murdered while committing a crime his accomplices are implicated in the murder regardless of culpability or not? By culpability I mean that they did not actually kill him. We seem to have that law in the UK, but it is so arbitrarily used as to be nothing but confusing. I’ve heard of cases where 2 parents have been charged with the death of a child, but because it couldn’t be decided who caused the fatal blow, nobody is charged with murder. On the other hand, there are cases where a group are involved in an attack on someone who dies, and they all get charged with the murder, but because no one will admit to giving the fatal blow, all are sentenced similarly, if found guilty. The law makers have had hundreds of years of human history and experience, and still can’t help being asses at times. If they are dealing with property and not human lives they tend to make far fewer mistakes! ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/275 "2009-06-01T14:46:30Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The guy’s hands were visible, and empty. Which certainly does not equal unarmed. Just nothing in his hands. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I think if I already have my gun out and pointed at the unconscious, wounded man on the floor I can react faster than he can draw an imaginary or hypothetical gun, even if I was in a back brace with one arm in a cast and a peg leg, with a patch over one eye. How long does it take you to move your hand to your back and fake draw a gun on someone? A second? Maybe a second and a half? Have you ever done any practical shooting or taken CCW styled self defense courses? You might be surprised as to how fast a determined person can get the drop on you and how equally slow one’s reaction to said event typically is. Throw in a brace that keeps ones upper body rigid and offers restricted movement and you have an even slower reaction time. And again, this whole unconscious supposition is based upon the ME’s report that could be easily wrong. I posted a link earlier where a woman was shot in the head, through and through, with the same caliber bullet. She made herself a cup of tea while waiting for the police. I read somewhere that the head wound in this case was not particularly serious. I’ll have to find that cite… If it is later found out that he was not “really” unconscious, or that there was a good chance that he wasn’t, does that change anything in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/276 "2009-06-01T14:52:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think there’s not really any way that a robbery victim, in the middle of an adrenaline rush in an incredibly high-stress situation, could be totally sure that the guy lying unconscious was, in fact, unconscious. For all the pharmacist knew, the guy on the ground could have gotten up at any moment. > > I come from a family of mom-and-pop store owners. It’s hard enough running a store, worrying about the rent and the bills and the competition from other stores, without also having to worry about someone coming in with a gun and robbing your shop. People who rob are the scum of the earth; like I said before, I would be happy if every one of them spontaneously burst into flames. The more robbers who are _shot to death_ during their “work,” the fewer robberies will ultimately occur, once the robbers get the message that holding up a store is akin to a death sentence. And _this is the message that they should get._ > > Every single scumbag in America contemplating sticking up a liquor store or a pawn shop or any other business should be just as scared as someone who was contemplating robbing a _police station._ They should be just as nervous as someone about to walk naked into a lion’s den. Every law abiding shop owner in America who is trying to make a living and support his family in peace should be considered a lion, by default, and robbing them should be considered a suicidal act. I get what you’re saying and I agree people have every right to defend themselves. I think you’re over simplifying. If more robbers were killed in the act would they be afraid to make the attempt or would they shoot first? Maybe your attitude would turn more robberies into a gun battles. I do think that knowing people are willing and able to defend themselves would give real pause to those who thought they could just scare people into handing over their property. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/277 "2009-06-01T14:56:06Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Wow, an unconscious person, who can be easily shot if he shows any signs of not being unconscious, poses no threat requires 20/20 hindsight to figure out? > > You must think Ersland to be really incredibly stupid. Give me a break. Everyone can analyze this event like the Zapruder film and come up with whatever conclusion they want, based on hindsight, Monday Morning Quarterbacking or whatever pre-conceived notions of self defense, crime and and punishment, race relations, or whatever else trips their triggers. Ultimately however, nobody knows with any true certainty, what happened except for the guy that is alive and kicking. Most of those crying for this guys head see what they want to see and blindly turn away from any shred of reasonable doubt or alternate scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/278 "2009-06-01T15:04:13Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > Really? Now ‘covering him’ is something that only supercops are capable of? I’m not acknowledging that Parsons was a continuing threat, only observing that if Ersland thought of the possibility of Parsons coming round and becoming a threat again, he had an option short of ‘finishing the job’. And Ersland, by turning his back on Parsons to get the second gun, obviously wasn’t worried about either the pals returning or Parsons having a concealed weapon. > > Parsons was apparently unconscious on the ground, with a bullet hole in his head, his hands visible and empty, and wasn’t moving. Even if Parsons did have a concealed weapon, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to sit there, pointing a gun at him, ready to shoot if Parsons goes for something concealed. > > Besides which, Ersland obviously wasn’t that worried about his pals returning if he wasted five shots on an unconscious man. If you were worried about them coming back, wouldn’t you preserve your ready ammunition? If you wanted to ensure Parsons didn’t get back up, wouldn’t you simply put one more in his head? note he did not keep a weapon handy after he shot Parsons and was making the call. He walked around the store unarmed waiting for the police so he wasn’t thinking of a returning robber. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/279 "2009-06-01T15:12:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I agree with this last part. Mr. Ersland should have called the cops immediately upon re-rentering the store, and waited for them to come and secure the area, keeping his gun trained on the perp he had already shot. You do not want to be holding a gun when the cops show up. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/280 "2009-06-01T15:16:29Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I get what you’re saying and I agree people have every right to defend themselves. I think you’re over simplifying. If more robbers were killed in the act would they be afraid to make the attempt or would they shoot first? Maybe your attitude would turn more robberies into a gun battles. > > I do think that knowing people are willing and able to defend themselves would give real pause to those who thought they could just scare people into handing over their property. The point of more robbers being killed in the act is so that more robbery victims can stay alive. Sometimes robbers shoot their victims after getting the loot. Some people die without having put up any kind of a fight at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=15)