# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/281 "2009-06-01T15:22:32Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > The abortion doctor was murdered because of vigilantism. Which do you prefer, a nation of laws or a nation were people are murdered because other people don’t like them? Third trimester abortions? C’mon! ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/282 "2009-06-01T15:26:28Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > After several views of the video, I think the idea that he acted in anything other than a calculated manner to be nothing but apologism for his actions. > > If he was pumped up with adrenaline, and still coming down from being in fear of his life, do you really think he’d have had the clear-headedness to phone the police **immediately** after finishing off the robber on the floor? You want help, you want the police to come help you. I was a victim without gunplay, I wanted the police to come help me. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/283 "2009-06-01T15:34:29Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Been robbed before, at gunpoint. At least thirty minutes later I was still pretty jumpy. I’ve seen two people shot before, same reaction. > > Ersland was not cool and collected 45 seconds after the shooting started. He may not have shown it in the video but you can bet that he was highly strung out and in fear of his life and those other emplyees hiding in the back. > See this isn’t a polo match or a friendly game of cards. It’s about survival. It’s savage combat. He could not know if the BG on the floor had a concealed weapon or if the guy who ran off might return or a third BG might show up. He had to lower the odds and completely eliminate the threat of the robber on the floor. > > He wanted to stay alive! > > If he had killed the robber initially with the first shot to the head, he would be no less dead than he is now. But Ersland wouldn’t have even been charged. How ridiculous is that? > > And if the robber was doing this line of work because his kids needed food as opposed to he just hates people, someone he might kill robbing them won’t be less dead either. I think this is a pretty relevant post that got overlooked. How do we the general public judge someone who was being robbed at gunpoint. Regardless of the video it’s unrealistic to refer to the guy as calm. There’s a good chance he wasn’t thinking perfectly rationally. Still, we do see him walk by the downed robber and turning his back on him to pursue the 2nd robber. When he returns he walks by the downed robber with his gun held in a non firing position. Maybe it’s empty, I don’t know, but he doesn’t seem to perceive any immediate threat as he walks by to get another gun {or is it reload?} He also doesn’t seem to perceive any immediate threat as he approaches the downed robber to shoot again. I can totally understand and support an “I’m not taking any chances” attitude. I think murder is out of the question and I sure hope it doesn’t come to that. Some version of manslaughter, maybe. We can 2nd guess him and say he could have held the gun on the downed robber or left the premises. I think either of those would have been a better choice. He chose to make sure the attacker wouldn’t get up. Who knows what was going on in his head? The fact that he walks by the downed robber twice and turns his back on him is going to be pretty damning. It seems to show he saw no immediate threat. In reading the other accounts of the average joe fighting back I can understand the feeling of satisfaction to hear about people defending themselves rather than living in fear. There’s still a danger of things going to far and justifying gun play for any offense. In one cited case a guy shoots a kid who is outside his window because the kid might be thinking about breaking in. OTOH, if the average joe starts defending himself we can expect some situations like this to arise. Overall is it a reasonable response to violent crimes and a price we as a society are willing to pay let criminals know they may be risking their lives when they choose to commit a crime? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/284 "2009-06-01T15:36:23Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > You do not want to be holding a gun when the cops show up. This is true. A local merchant was shot by cops when he chased robbers outside and was so excited he didn’t drop his gun when ordered by the police. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/285 "2009-06-01T15:39:15Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Which certainly does not equal unarmed. Just nothing in his hands. > > How long does it take you to move your hand to your back and fake draw a gun on someone? A second? Maybe a second and a half? Have you ever done any practical shooting or taken CCW styled self defense courses? You might be surprised as to how fast a determined person can get the drop on you and how equally slow one’s reaction to said event typically is. Throw in a brace that keeps ones upper body rigid and offers restricted movement and you have an even slower reaction time. > > And again, this whole unconscious supposition is based upon the ME’s report that could be easily wrong. I posted a link earlier where a woman was shot in the head, through and through, with the same caliber bullet. She made herself a cup of tea while waiting for the police. I read somewhere that the head wound in this case was not particularly serious. I’ll have to find that cite… If it is later found out that he was not “really” unconscious, or that there was a good chance that he wasn’t, does that change anything in your mind? IN the video the merchant walks by the downed robber twice with no sign of alarm or being threatened. He turns his back to him. If he wasn’t worried then about a hidden weapon and feigned or recovering unconsciousness why would he be later? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/286 "2009-06-01T15:43:29Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > This is true. A local merchant was shot by cops when he chased robbers outside and was so excited he didn’t drop his gun when ordered by the police. I’d add that the merchant in the video seems able to think clearly enough to drop the weapon when the cops arrive. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/287 "2009-06-01T15:43:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And I can’t begin to understand how you can’t muster any sympathy whatsoever for a kid who got shot 5 times while he was down. > > The two are not mutually exclusive, y’know ? > Yeah, yeah, I get it, he’s a criminal, the scum of the Earth and all that. He’s still a human being, i.e. someone like me. > > As has been already argued in the thread (and I happen to agree), once the robber is down and unconscious, the robbery is over. The crime has been averted, the danger’s mostly gone. Walking to get a second gun and pumping rounds into the prone perp isn’t self-defense, it’s an execution. > > Besides, I would point out that the object of self-defense is _not_ to kill one’s assailant, but to prevent or stop the assault. To make the “bad guys” flee, or incapacitate them. Death is the possible yet always regrettable consequence of self-defense, not the goal thereof. > > And that’s a multiple robbee speaking (although, I admit, never at gunpoint, since guns are outlawed in France and even outlaws don’t have them for the most part ;)) When one fires at an assailant in self-defense, one fires at the center of mass, in other words, the heart. When the heart is hit by anything from a 9mm on up it’s going to kill the assailant. Shooting to “stop the threat” is one of those legal semantic compromises made when laws allowing carrying were passed. If we as concealed carriers have to use our weapons in self-defense we never use the word “kill”. Not when speaking to the cops, not when speaking to a lawyer and not in court. But when we take those shots, we are defintely intending to kill. And how did you ever manage to get robbed multiple times when the robber didn’t even have a gun? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/288 "2009-06-01T15:47:26Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > The point of more robbers being killed in the act is so that more robbery victims can stay alive. Sometimes robbers shoot their victims after getting the loot. Some people die without having put up any kind of a fight at all. Thats true. I support people defending themselves and in the long run I think that will help curb crime. I’m only saying there could be a price to pay in more gun battles or robbers shooting first as in the bank robbery example offered. It isn’t a given that it’s a death sentence for robbers as suggested. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/289 "2009-06-01T15:55:42Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > When one fires at an assailant in self-defense, one fires at the center of mass, in other words, the heart. When the heart is hit by anything from a 9mm on up it’s going to kill the assailant. Shooting to “stop the threat” is one of those legal semantic compromises made when laws allowing carrying were passed. If we as concealed carriers have to use our weapons in self-defense we never use the word “kill”. Not when speaking to the cops, not when speaking to a lawyer and not in court. > > But when we take those shots, we are defintely intending to kill. Really? Knowing we _could_ kill is not the same as _intending_ to. Isn’t it possible to just stop the threat to ourselves without wanting to kill? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/290 "2009-06-01T16:01:42Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Third trimester abortions? C’mon! So murder of anyone who performs abortions is okay? Or just abortion doctors you personally disagree with? Please clarify. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/291 "2009-06-01T16:11:32Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > IN the video the merchant walks by the downed robber twice with no sign of alarm or being threatened. He turns his back to him. If he wasn’t worried then about a hidden weapon and feigned or recovering unconsciousness why would he be later? The guy on the ground might have moved after passing him twice or made some sort of gesture that was perceived as a threat? Perhaps he thought “oh crap, I never checked to see if this guy is armed or not…” Just a couple of possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/292 "2009-06-01T16:16:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So murder of anyone who performs abortions is okay? Or just abortion doctors you personally disagree with? > > Please clarify. Don’t want to hijack but…do you have any idea what a third trimester abortion is like? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/293 "2009-06-01T16:16:48Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > When one fires at an assailant in self-defense, one fires at the center of mass, in other words, the heart. When the heart is hit by anything from a 9mm on up it’s going to kill the assailant. Shooting to “stop the threat” is one of those legal semantic compromises made when laws allowing carrying were passed. If we as concealed carriers have to use our weapons in self-defense we never use the word “kill”. Not when speaking to the cops, not when speaking to a lawyer and not in court. > > But when we take those shots, we are defintely intending to kill. Yes. I know. Incidentally, I also support gun control, so…yeah. > [@](#): > > And how did you ever manage to get robbed multiple times when the robber didn’t even have a gun? _shrug_ I weigh 100 pounds with heavy clothes, am usually by myself, and the only combat sport I ever did was kendo. Which would only really help self defensing if I carried a sword at all times. Which, in turn, would make me amazingly cool, I admit ('cause a shinai just looks wimpy, y’know ? :p) But mostly, I got robbed because I let myself get robbed, through inattention, naïveté and plain not caring for whatever I have/had in my pockets. I ain’t fighting over a 20 bucks CD-player, a cellphone I loathe, a credit card I’ll lock down an hour later or two packs of cigarettes. EDIT : [QUOTE=JXJohns] The guy on the ground might have moved after passing him twice or made some sort of gesture that was perceived as a threat? Perhaps he thought “oh crap, I never checked to see if this guy is armed or not…” Just a couple of possibilities. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that would have conceivably flown for one more startled bullet. Not five at point blank. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/294 "2009-06-01T16:17:20Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Give me a break. Everyone can analyze this event like the Zapruder film and come up with whatever conclusion they want, based on hindsight, Monday Morning Quarterbacking or whatever pre-conceived notions of self defense, crime and and punishment, race relations, or whatever else trips their triggers. Ultimately however, nobody knows with any true certainty, what happened except for the guy that is alive and kicking. Most of those crying for this guys head see what they want to see and blindly turn away from any shred of reasonable doubt or alternate scenarios. **wrong**. Have you forgotten of the security camera? The same security camera showing him turn his back to the murder victim? In what world do you turn your back to a threat? No, instead considering that lets call pointing out an unconscious person is no threat “armchair quartering backing”. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/295 "2009-06-01T16:18:21Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Really? Knowing we _could_ kill is not the same as _intending_ to. Isn’t it possible to just stop the threat to ourselves without wanting to kill? It’s not wanting but needing to kill. A dead perp has 0% chance of hurting you or someone you might be defending. Do you really want to gamble with the life of a loved one? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/296 "2009-06-01T16:20:39Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > First off, I’m not a liberal. > > Next, normal people would, or at least should, muster sympathy for someone who was no longer capable of commiting the robbery as he was laid out on the floor and was no longer a danger and therefore was killed, from the evidence at hand, pretty much in cold blood. The sympathy should go towards the victim of a murder. > > Finally, I have plenty of sympathy for the victim of the robbery all the way to the point where he was no longer a victim. Being the victim of a crime, which by the way is no longer in progress, is not license to commit a different and more serious crime. Seems to me that there are these nifty things called _laws_ that address this far better than I. He never stopped being a victim. Ersland was always a victim in this case. It’s a tragedy. Sympathy is not a finite thing where we have to decide which side we have sympathy for. I have sympathy for both sides, even though I think both sides made incredibly poor decisions. Shakespeare made quite a career presenting us with such conundrums. This is not Shakespearean but it makes for an honest to goodness tragedy with no heroes and no clear cut villains. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/297 "2009-06-01T16:21:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes. I know. Incidentally, I also support gun control, so…yeah. > > _shrug_ I weigh 100 pounds with heavy clothes, am usually by myself, and the only combat sport I ever did was kendo. Which would only really help self defensing if I carried a sword at all times. Which, in turn, would make me amazingly cool, I admit ('cause a shinai just looks wimpy, y’know ? :p) > > But mostly, I got robbed because I let myself get robbed, through inattention, naïveté and plain not caring for whatever I have/had in my pockets. I ain’t fighting over a 20 bucks CD-player, a cellphone I loathe, a credit card I’ll lock down an hour later or two packs of cigarettes. > > EDIT : > > Yeah, that would have conceivably flown for one more startled bullet. Not five at point blank. Stay alert man! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/298 "2009-06-01T16:22:12Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > **wrong**. Have you forgotten of the security camera? The same security camera showing him turn his back to the murder victim? > > In what world do you turn your back to a threat? One where you are not thinking straight? Operating on pure reaction. You guys act like he was sitting there analyzing everything. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. The moral of the story, keep a gun with stopping power under your counter, if you shoot someone, you want them to be dead for real. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/299 "2009-06-01T16:23:29Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Don’t want to hijack but…do you have any idea what a third trimester abortion is like? The question at hand is do you support the vigilante murder of Dr. Tiller? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/300 "2009-06-01T16:25:30Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > The guy on the ground might have moved after passing him twice or made some sort of gesture that was perceived as a threat? Perhaps he thought “oh crap, I never checked to see if this guy is armed or not…” Just a couple of possibilities. Possible. He walks right by after coming back in and shifts his gun to his left hand. I have to wonder what he’s seeing to be so casual and not wonder about a threat from what amounts to a wounded robber. Then he brings the gun over and fires repeatedly at point blank range, not from any cover such as behind the counter. Maybe he heard the wounded man make a sound or try to move and realized he might still be a threat but approaching that close seems to indicate the wounded man wasn’t a threat. I can imagine being scared and high on adrenaline but it’s hard to imagine approaching any perceived threat that openly and getting that close. In my book, even if he executed the kid out of rage at being robbed it’s still not murder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=16)