# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/301 "2009-06-01T16:25:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > One where you are not thinking straight? Operating on pure reaction. > > You guys act like he was sitting there analyzing everything. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. > > The moral of the story, keep a gun with stopping power under your counter, if you shoot someone, you want them to be dead for real. It’s pure reaction to calmly reload a gun with your back turned to a threat? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/302 "2009-06-01T16:27:57Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Thats true. I support people defending themselves and in the long run I think that will help curb crime. I’m only saying there could be a price to pay in more gun battles or robbers shooting first as in the bank robbery example offered. It isn’t a given that it’s a death sentence for robbers as suggested. I may not have been clear so I want to point out that I wasn’t talking about deterrence. I meant that, say here and now, someone is being robbed. If they pull out a gun and kill the robber then they survive. And in every here and now more robbery victims will survive because they killed the robber. Or at least incapacitated him. They could wait and see if hopefully he’ll just leave after he’s collected the goods. But what if he doesn’t? What if he decides to go ahead and shoot them? Then they lost out on their chance to survive. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/303 "2009-06-01T16:28:11Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > **wrong**. Have you forgotten of the security camera? The same security camera showing him turn his back to the murder victim? > > In what world do you turn your back to a threat? In a high stress world where you were just robbed at gunpoint, multiple threats are present, your head is ringing from firing a gun indoors, and realizing that you might have just killed a man. I think it is easy to think that perhaps one’s judgment might be slightly impaired. I give him a break on turning his back to a threat. > [@](#): > > No, instead considering that lets call pointing out an unconscious person is no threat “armchair quartering backing”. Sorry, I’m reading this and have no idea what you are trying to say. Please try again. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/304 "2009-06-01T16:30:43Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > The question at hand is do you support the vigilante murder of Dr. Tiller? Don’t feel sorry for him, some things transcend the law of the land. And I did propose my own question. Care to answer? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/305 "2009-06-01T16:33:56Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Don’t feel sorry for him, some things transcend the law of the land. And it’s up to the vigilante, not the people who actually live in that land, to define those things eh? ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/306 "2009-06-01T16:35:54Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Don’t feel sorry for him, some things transcend the law of the land So that’s a yes, you do support vigilantism and the killing of George Tiller. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/307 "2009-06-01T16:38:32Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > It’s not wanting but needing to kill. A dead perp has 0% chance of hurting you or someone you might be defending. Do you really want to gamble with the life of a loved one? No. I do see the point. Imagine how bad it would be to defend yourself and then have your mercy backfire when a wounded criminal surprises you. I really have no idea what I would do. I would hope I would have the presence of mind to not kill unnecessarily and not be foolhardy with mercy. I don’t own a gun so I can understand if I swung a bat a pipe or a knife in defense I’d want to make sure they were unable to hurt me or anyone else. I would hope my first priority would be defending myself and my loved ones and showing mercy to an attacker once I’m **sure** that’s done. That’s what gives me pause watching the video. It seems the merchant has successfully protected himself , his property,and his employees. He appears to be unconcerned about the downed robber as a serious threat and still shoots him five times at close range. It may be understandable rage in the heat of a gun battle but it doesn’t seem like self defense. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/308 "2009-06-01T16:39:22Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > And I did propose my own question. Care to answer? Sneaky edit:p It sounds horrible, but how many people actually get those? Dr. Tiller wasn’t murdered over third trimester abortions, but because he performed abortions at all. If you don’t agree with a law it’s up to you to either convince the necessary majority to change that law, or let society live with the rules it chooses. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/309 "2009-06-01T16:40:15Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > In a high stress world where you were just robbed at gunpoint, multiple threats are present, your head is ringing from firing a gun indoors, and realizing that you might have just killed a man. I think it is easy to think that perhaps one’s judgment might be slightly impaired. I give him a break on turning his back to a threat. Stop me if I’m reading you wrong, but are you saying it’s understandable, or conceivable if you will to maybe shoot a guy 5 times because you’re shocked by the sudden realization you might have just killed him ? Dude, that’s even loopier than \*my \*reasonings. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/310 "2009-06-01T16:40:31Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It was a deliberate, planned action, unlike the first shot that hit the guy in the head, which was a spontaneous (and legitimate) act of self-defense. I never disagreed with that, Bo. It’s just what Monty was calling vigilanteism seemed to include the first shot as well. I don’t see the second series of shots getting ‘a lot of support’. Just the first one. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/311 "2009-06-01T16:43:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That would be what happened with the first shot. > > The non-spontaneous bit would be the next five shots, the ones fired after reloading. Well, I can’t disagree with that at all, Monty. I can think about the 40 shots the cops fired at Abner Louima, and conclude that some weird shit happens in combat situations, and maybe this guy has a defense. (Especially since it’s Oklahoma. In Texas, I’m pretty sure he’d be scot-free, Oklahoma’s laws are similar but not the same.) But generally, I’m not really seeing support here for the next five, just the first one. Edit: Yes, Monty, you were confusing at least one thing, you were confusing me. And I’m going to stick with that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/312 "2009-06-01T16:46:51Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Sneaky edit:p > > It sounds horrible, but how many people actually get those? Dr. Tiller wasn’t murdered over third trimester abortions, but because he performed abortions at all. > > If you don’t agree with a law it’s up to you to either convince the necessary majority to change that law, or let society live with the rules it chooses. I do believe wholeheartedly in what you are saying. But third trimester abortions are atrocious. And he was performing them. After 21 weeks is what is recorded. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/313 "2009-06-01T16:47:48Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > So that’s a yes, you do support vigilantism and the killing of George Tiller. Why do you need to mischaracterize what he said? He stated his case plainly. He doesn’t feel sorry for the death of a murderer. That doesn’t mean he thinks that vigilantes should be able to flaunt the law of the land. There is simply no reason to twist his words in this case. You can hate his opinions with righteous indignation as they stand without putting words into his mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/314 "2009-06-01T16:49:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This is not Shakespearean but it makes for an honest to goodness tragedy with no heroes and no clear cut villains. I fail to see how armed robbers are not clear cut villains. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/315 "2009-06-01T16:52:09Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I fail to see how armed robbers are not clear cut villains. Well he became a victim when he was incapacitated and shot to death. That doesn’t make Ersland a villain. At worst Ersland is an anti-hero. But in all fairness I’ll concede that an armed robber is a clear cut villain, but that he can still be a victim. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/316 "2009-06-01T16:53:36Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I may not have been clear so I want to point out that I wasn’t talking about deterrence. I meant that, say here and now, someone is being robbed. If they pull out a gun and kill the robber then they survive. And in every here and now more robbery victims will survive because they killed the robber. Or at least incapacitated him. > > They could wait and see if hopefully he’ll just leave after he’s collected the goods. But what if he doesn’t? What if he decides to go ahead and shoot them? Then they lost out on their chance to survive. I see. I was responding to another poster who said robbers should see every robbery as a death sentence, and thinking of possible effects of more people defending themselves with guns. If people decide to defend themselves with a gun I hope they take the time to target practice and take a gun safety course. It’s also possible that in pulling a gun in self defense you escalate the situation and increase your own chances of being shot as well as anyone else. What if the merchant had missed and instead he was the one with a bullet in the head? I don’t know of any statistics on that and in general support people defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/317 "2009-06-01T16:55:10Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I see. I was responding to another poster who said robbers should see every robbery as a death sentence, and thinking of possible effects of more people defending themselves with guns. > > If people decide to defend themselves with a gun I hope they take the time to target practice and take a gun safety course. > > It’s also possible that in pulling a gun in self defense you escalate the situation and increase your own chances of being shot as well as anyone else. What if the merchant had missed and instead he was the one with a bullet in the head? I don’t know of any statistics on that and in general support people defending themselves. I always heard quoted that citizens who are likely to pull a gun to defend themselves are generally better shots than either criminals or police because they are more likely to be gun enthusiasts and take their gun to the range regularly. I bet **SenorBeef** would be the best person to answer this question. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/318 "2009-06-01T16:57:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well he became a victim when he was incapacitated and shot to death. That doesn’t make Ersland a villain. At worst Ersland is an anti-hero. But in all fairness I’ll concede that an armed robber is a clear cut villain, but that he can still be a victim. I think if the kid is a victim he’s a victim of the bastard who talked them into the robbery. My son got involved with an adult who taught teens how to shoplift convincing them they wouldn’t face any severe punishment if caught. He served as their fence. Didn’t someone mention others being arrested. A get away driver and someone who planned it. I’m thinking there’s an adult in there who got this kid killed other than the merchant. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/319 "2009-06-01T16:59:09Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > He appears to be unconcerned about the downed robber as a serious threat and still shoots him five times at close range. Let’s all take another look at the video. Starting from the point where the robber is downed (and out of frame) the shop owner doesn’t even spare a glace his way. You wouldn’t have a clue that anyone was there until he bent down to shoot him. He walked right past this dangerous, gun toting robber, turned his back to him and walked, in full view, to pick up his other gun, looking down into the drawer to check it or load it or whatever, then walked to within a couple of feet to pump more bullets into him. I wouldn’t bat an eye if he put 10 bullets into him at the start, but you leave, turn your back, don’t even look at him while walking past, you no longer get to pull out the self defense card. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/320 "2009-06-01T17:01:18Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I see. I was responding to another poster who said robbers should see every robbery as a death sentence, and thinking of possible effects of more people defending themselves with guns. > > If people decide to defend themselves with a gun I hope they take the time to target practice and take a gun safety course. > > It’s also possible that in pulling a gun in self defense you escalate the situation and increase your own chances of being shot as well as anyone else. What if the merchant had missed and instead he was the one with a bullet in the head? I don’t know of any statistics on that and in general support people defending themselves. Unfortunately not everyone should carry a gun. Some people just aren’t capable of handling one. And the consequences could be devastating. Hopefully those of us that do might be around when those people are in danger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=17)