# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/341 "2009-06-01T18:01:46Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > The teen who got away, and two 22 year olds who were waiting in the car, have all been arrested and are now facing felony murder charges because of Parson’s death. Right. The fucking 22 year olds talked two teens into attempting an armed robbery. Was it even a real gun? I was trying to determine in the video if the kid ever fired or just fled when the merchant opened fire? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/342 "2009-06-01T18:02:40Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > No, the question that I answered with that response relates to why he would turn his back to a potential threat. My point is that in real life, not Law and Order, or the Shield, etc., stress makes people act differently than they do on TV or as compared to our preconceived notions of how someone _should_ act n any given situation. > > That specific response that you quoted had nothing to do with the second series of shots. I think everyone is well aware that people do stupid or bizarre things when under stress. That’s not the point. It isn’t just “he turned his back on him”, therefore he didn’t think he was a threat. It is “the sum of his actions and his body language show that he didn’t perceive a threat”. You keep ignoring this, and the only reason that I can think of is that you don’t have a good defense for it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/343 "2009-06-01T18:10:55Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > **Una** you should know better than this. You don’t know that the NAACP didn’t say anything castigating the robbers, do you? All you know is that the story didn’t quote him saying anything castigating about the robbers, right? You’re incorrect in assuming I just went off of the link in the OP. I searched around quite a bit and found various portions of the NAACP’s statements, but none where they castigated the criminals. The closest I found was the statement by Reginald Mitchell: > [@](#): > > These two kids made an egregious mistake," said the Rev. Reginald Mitchell, president of the Oklahoma City branch of the NAACP. “The community is going to have to take ownership. These are our problems.” That’s a good start, but I’d hardly call that castigation. A “mistake” is having fender-bender, not committing armed robbery. From KOCO, I find this oddly conflicting statement: > [@](#): > > State NAACP president Anthony Douglas said the judicial system should be allowed to run its course and the organization won’t take sides on Ersland’s guilt or innocence. So…one can go on record calling it an “execution-style murder”, yet also claim one won’t take sides? That’s some old-school double-talk there. From KSBI, I find this: > [@](#): > > “The district attorney has properly done his job, bringing the charge of murder, as we believe the circumstance so dictates,” NAACP Oklahoma President Anthony Douglas said. “Self-defense is one thing, and it is our right, and an unusual executional–executional-style murder is something different and our society should not condone it and we are hear to speak against such conduct.” Which is different than previously quoted ('executional" is not a word in my dictionaries, but oh well). I think Franco Cevallos from the Hispanic Action Coalition gets it - he mirrors my opinions: > [@](#): > > “Mr. Ersland should have stopped after he shot him the first time,” Cevallos said. “He was unarmed, he was not a threat for him, he was disabled, he should have stopped there. He didn’t have to play rambo and go get a gun and unload it another five times that, that is shameful.” All places I can find full video of the NAACP’s response are behind for-pay sites, and I can’t get to Youtube from here. There doesn’t seem to be a transcript I can find on the NAACP’s website. Of course, you could shatter my objections completely and get a retraction from me by just linking to the full transcript showing where they did castigate him. Finally, and I do mean finally, starting posts with “you should know better than this” may be a convenient way to insult someone in GD while skirting under the Rules, but it’s also not very nice. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/344 "2009-06-01T18:11:26Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Funny how the NAACP didn’t castigate the dead men for the armed robbery that led to their deaths in the first place, huh. :dubious: I noticed in the comments that a black person who was the victim of violent crime agrees with you. They were robbers and he was the intended victim who fought back. It’s not a race issue. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/345 "2009-06-01T18:32:12Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > Or maybe the guy just killed him for fun. I don’t know. It’s all about state of mind. I think it’s likely that the store manager was aware of the possibility of continuing legal troubles with a wounded, and not dead, robber. Dead robbers don’t sue you. That would make the final shots more cold-blooded, but on the other hand, to convict him in this situation would require that you know it was cold-blooded murder and not that he was still scared for his life, from a wounded but alive robber waking up and attacking again. He won’t be convicted. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/346 "2009-06-01T18:32:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Caller: I need the police. I just shot a robber. > 911: Is he still there? Or did you chase him off? > Caller: One ran away. The one I shot is lying on my floor bleeding. > 911: Officers are on the way. > Caller: I’m keeping my gun on this guy until you get here. > 911: I’ll make sure the officers are aware, sir. > > Then when the cops show up, you drop the weapon and let them take control of the situation. > > How do I know this? I was the caller. I saw a guy beating his girlfriend in the street, called the cops, and then went outside and wailed on the guy. Subdued him and held him until police showed up. I had a pipe in my hand, not a gun, but that’s how you deal with it: you communicate information to the police so they can do their job properly. Did he have a weapon? If not, why did you meet him with unequal force? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/347 "2009-06-01T18:45:26Z")
Anyone want to take 10/1 that Mr Hero-Pharmacist doesn’t go a year before he gets shot dead by one of the dead kid’s friends, if he eventually gets off with this? ( Probably be a lot quicker if he gets bailed.) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/348 "2009-06-01T18:51:24Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > And how did you ever manage to get robbed multiple times when the robber didn’t even have a gun? Erm…knives, perhaps? Or a machete. Maybe an axe. But usually knives. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/349 "2009-06-01T18:54:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Erm…knives, perhaps? Or a machete. Maybe an axe. But usually knives. He already answered the question. But the best defense against a knife is to run like hell. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/350 "2009-06-01T19:15:38Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Anyone want to take 10/1 that Mr Hero-Pharmacist doesn’t go a year before he gets shot dead by one of the dead kid’s friends, if he eventually gets off with this? ( Probably be a lot quicker if he gets bailed.) Sure, send me a PM and we can work out the details. This isn’t the wild west and anyone who would go looking for trouble with this guy also knows he is armed. One can further bet that he will be _better_ armed after this occasion. Criminals are cowards and prey on the weak. This guy has proven, for right or for wrong, that he has no compunction in defending himself. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/351 "2009-06-01T19:19:20Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Did he have a weapon? If not, why did you meet him with unequal force? Is this a serious question? Since when does defending yourself or others mean “make sure you have the same weapon” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/352 "2009-06-01T19:27:15Z")
Wait, Oklahoma calls it a “Make My Day” law? WTF is that? _Yay, I get to kill a human being and not face legal consequences!_ He’s a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/353 "2009-06-01T19:30:36Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I noticed in the comments that a black person who was the victim of violent crime agrees with you. They were robbers and he was the intended victim who fought back. It’s not a race issue. I didn’t say it was a race issue; I think it’s, like many things, a politically opportunistic issue. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/354 "2009-06-01T19:31:38Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Wait, Oklahoma calls it a “Make My Day” law? WTF is that? > > _Yay, I get to kill a human being and not face legal consequences!_ > > He’s a murderer. Because you don’t like the slang term for the law? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/355 "2009-06-01T19:33:20Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I didn’t say it was a race issue; I think it’s, like many things, a politically opportunistic issue. I know you didn’t. The NAACP implied it was by getting involved and making the comments you pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/356 "2009-06-01T19:35:22Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > He already answered the question. But the best defense against a knife is to run like hell. Pack and a half a day. I couldn’t run away from a guy in a wheelchair :p. But like I said, in the end it’s just that I don’t care all that much about it. If I really cared, I could get a stun gun, pepper spray, carry a knife or knuckle dusters or whatever. Even jump through hoops and get a gun license. I just don’t feel the need to. Shit happens. Sometimes you’re lucky and there’s a cop (or, in one memorable case, a band of communist skinheads) to get you out of the pickle. Sometimes you hand over the lunch money. It’s not a huge deal to me. It’s just the background noise of living in the big city. And in the end, I guess I always felt pretty safe, even back when I had to take one of the worst subway lines every day, and even during the robberies themselves. I feel like I can trust my “gangstas” to be… well, idiots, OK, but practical idiots who don’t want to risk a murder rap for the hell of it. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/357 "2009-06-01T19:40:45Z")
From the linked article in **Snowboarder Bo** ’s post on the first page ([#16](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11195626&postcount=16)): > [@](#): > > Ersland then pulled out his bigger gun, the Taurus, to go after the other robber, but Parker tried to get up. Fearing for his safety, and not knowing the Parker was actually unarmed, Ersland then pumped five more shots into Parker’s chest, which proved fatal. It’s also stated there that Ersland is a disabled war veteran and the option of flight from the robbers was not available to him. If these facts are as stated I have no problem at all with the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/358 "2009-06-01T19:44:32Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Because you don’t like the slang term for the law? No, because he shot to death an unconscious, incapacitated person who, for all that he had harmed him, no longer posed any sort of reasonable threat of further harm. My disdain for the flippancy of the law’s nickname is separate from that. I should have been clear that I intended two different statements by saying _He’s a murderer. btw._ ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/359 "2009-06-01T19:51:55Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > It’s also stated there that Ersland is a disabled war veteran and the option of flight from the robbers was not available to him. Yet, he was somehow magically imbued with the ability to chase down an uninjured robber who had a 30 second head start. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/360 "2009-06-01T20:05:12Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > From the linked article in **Snowboarder Bo** ’s post on the first page ([#16](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11195626&postcount=16)): > > It’s also stated there that Ersland is a disabled war veteran and the option of flight from the robbers was not available to him. > > If these facts are as stated I have no problem at all with the shooting. That’s kinda how I feel as well except a man man shot in the head trying to get up isn’t automatically a threat. When he approached the kid at such close range it seems clear he saw no weapon. Is there a problem with waiting or even trying to warn the kid. “Stay down keep your hands where I can see them?” Since he left the store to pursue the other robber and then came back the option of flight clearly was available. I believe I would be pretty nervous about a man who possibly has a gun getting up. That probably means I’d stay behind some cover rather than walk up to point blank range. He didn’t walk out in the open when the first robber brandished a weapon. He shot from behind the counter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=19)