# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/21 "2009-05-31T05:01:28Z")
I agree that he shouldn’t have gone back and shot the would be robber, but I can’t really feel sorry for the teen. He learned a valuable lesson: don’t rob people. I’ve gone a whole 22 years without being killed because I robbed someone and I think I’ll go a bit further. Now, what I do fear is getting shot by some teen because he wanted to rob me. Good thing he was taken out before he had a chance to hurt someone innocent. I liked the mother’s comment, “My baby didn’t deserve this.” Yes he did. The moment he robbing people he deserves whatever he gets. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/22 "2009-05-31T05:06:39Z")
What embarasses me most is the relativism that the NRA Laws and Lawyers and the Law have assumed, they are only actually debating whether this man should own a gun anymore… the infraction is apparently justifiable in their fucked up World… Murderers allowed with weapons is what I thought we were trying to fight? Seems Sisyphysian, this policy brought to true light. ---
**Author:** ![Bender44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Bender44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bender44)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/23 "2009-05-31T05:07:19Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > He learned a valuable lesson: don’t rob people. How much value you think he’s getting out of that particular lesson? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/24 "2009-05-31T05:08:59Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > I agree that he shouldn’t have gone back and shot the would be robber, but I can’t really feel sorry for the teen. He learned a valuable lesson: don’t rob people. Well, he’s dead, so he didn’t really learn anything. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/25 "2009-05-31T05:57:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If he was already dead, why shoot him 5 more times? > > AFAIK the video is not available online (and I doubt it will be until the trial, but I’ll keep looking), but there is this in the article quoted in the OP: > > ETA: found the video - [http://voice-of-deseret.blogspot.com/2009/05/oklahomas-assault-on-second-amendment.html](http://voice-of-deseret.blogspot.com/2009/05/oklahomas-assault-on-second-amendment.html) The teen he shot cannot be seen on the video. Not sure how they know what the fatal shots were but if they can prove it he’s a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/26 "2009-05-31T06:01:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, he’s dead, so he didn’t really learn anything. On-the-job training. My sympathy is not incomplete for the kid but it’s low. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/27 "2009-05-31T06:07:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not sure how they know what the fatal shots were but if they can prove it he’s a murderer. It’s easy. If the wounds from the second series of shots show signs that his body was still pumping blood, he was still alive. That’s an easy forensics thing. I’d be surprised if the ME botched that call. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/28 "2009-05-31T06:18:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It’s easy. If the wounds from the second series of shots show signs that his body was still pumping blood, he was still alive. That’s an easy forensics thing. I’d be surprised if the ME botched that call. You’re more than probably right but your original post said he shot the kid in the head. If there’s a hole in the center of his forehead and his brains are JFK’d all over the floor then blood flow is not really relevant. He’s dead. I’m not defending the drugist. Maybe getting shot is a good way to knock some sense into kids. We’ll never know in this case. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/29 "2009-05-31T06:21:34Z")
Want to see how he could be a folk hero? Read through the [metafilter thread](http://www.metafilter.com/82050/Dont-shoot-a-man-when-hes-down) on this. Lots of people there arguing that no jury should convict him. > [@](#): > > The legal system is designed to resolve guilt and punishment for actions in the abstract. The pharmacist had just been unarguably and on video on the receiving end of violence. There is no shade of grey to him. He was the victim. As such he had the right to act to right a wrong. The only legal issue might be whether he had provoked the assault on him, and i have seen no argument that that was the case. This is a primary situation where all the players understand exactly who is doing what. As I observed in the metafilter thread, one needn’t feel any sympathy at all for the dead teen in order to see what Ersland did as an execution. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/30 "2009-05-31T06:25:48Z")
Unless anyone thinks that crooks would be more likely to start ripping off pharmacies after this, you may as well call it heroic. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/31 "2009-05-31T06:28:23Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Is this a serious question? He pumped 5 bullets into a kid lying helpless and unconscious on the ground. How the hell is that anything but murder? > > From my understanding, he shot the kid, kid goes down, is no longer a threat and the kid has no weapon. The guy goes after the kid’s co-wannabe robber. Then the guy goes back to get another gun, goes back and shoots the kid 5 more times while the kid is lying unconscious (coroner says not dead) on the floor. > > The fact this could even be considered a “debate” is sad. I agree with you except for the part where you appeal to emotion and try to impugn anyone who seeks to question it. Questioning is ALWAYS 100% a good thing in the fight against ignorance. Even if the answer one comes to is the answer that is to be expected. Shame on you for trying to shame people from questioning accepted wisdom. Outside of that, I agree with you 100%, it’s murder. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/32 "2009-05-31T06:29:24Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Billy the Kid, Bonny and Clyde, Jesse James, Nat Turner, William Wallace, Dick Turpin. All folk heroes. All killed a bunch of people. They needed killing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/33 "2009-05-31T06:30:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re more than probably right but your original post said he shot the kid in the head. If there’s a hole in the center of his forehead and his brains are JFK’d all over the floor then blood flow is not really relevant. He’s dead. I’m not defending the drugist. Maybe getting shot is a good way to knock some sense into kids. We’ll never know in this case. I would just point out that it is possible to be shot in the head, and not have a hole in the center of your forehead. Rather than come up with possible scenarios, can we stick to the information we actually have? If it will placate, I agree that if the kid was already dead from the headshot, no murder charge is possible (although desecrating a corpse might be applicable). But the information that we do have is that he was still alive. Until someone can present information that this wasn’t the case, I see no point in speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/34 "2009-05-31T06:48:15Z")
I can feel only admiration for someone who responds to armed robbers by killing one and chasing off the other. I honestly can’t understand how a good person could come to any other conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/35 "2009-05-31T06:57:11Z")
How can anyone consider shooting a defenseless person five times a hero? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/36 "2009-05-31T07:00:07Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > How can anyone consider shooting a defenseless person five times a hero? You’re saying “defenseless” as if he was a white bunny playing in the meadow, and not an armed robber. He didn’t shoot a defenseless person five times. He shot someone who tried to rob him five times. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/37 "2009-05-31T07:02:40Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > You’re saying “defenseless” as if he was a white bunny playing in the meadow, and not an armed robber. He didn’t shoot a defenseless person five times. He shot someone who tried to rob him five times. Actually, he chased the armed robber off. The robber who got shot was, AFAIK, unarmed. And unconscious. And wounded. And immobile. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/38 "2009-05-31T07:03:55Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > You’re saying “defenseless” as if he was a white bunny playing in the meadow If that bunny got half a chance, he’d kill you and your whole family. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/39 "2009-05-31T07:05:13Z")
> [@Bender44](#): > > How much value you think he’s getting out of that particular lesson? How much value do you think everyone else will get out of that particular lesson? This is the last time he’s ever going to prey on innocent people, isn’t it? Good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/40 "2009-05-31T07:05:31Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Actually, he chased the armed robber off. The robber who got shot was, AFAIK, unarmed. I think it would have been a perfectly reasonable reaction to respond to both robbers as if they had guns, after one of them points a gun at you in the robbery attempt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=3)