# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/401 "2009-06-02T01:33:28Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > I’m quite happy with the adults getting charged with felony murder. For one thing, they were the instigators of the armed robbery, who sent two teens in to live or die in their place. They’re fully responsible for the death of Parsons (and no, this doesn’t excuse Ersland–responsibility isn’t zero-sum). > > The general reasoning behind the felony murder charge is that you’re responsible for the consequences of your bad actions, whatever they are; that by undertaking those bad actions, you’re accepting responsibility for their outcome, foreseen or not. I have no problem with that. I don’t think the adults should escape responsibility just because they sent two kids in their place. Exactly. That at least is negligent homicide on their part. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/402 "2009-06-02T02:41:30Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > That video doesn’t conclusively show what exactly happened. People can get grazed by head-shot bullets and be stunned and bleed like stuck pigs, then move or whatever thereafter. Oh, yeah, it didn’t occur to me that the dude could’ve just been grazed because what I’d read about the incident didn’t give me that impression. At any rate, what you’ve said makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/403 "2009-06-02T02:43:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Oh, I see. You thought you were setting me up to contradict myself. Nice try. No, you answered as expected. I wanted to illustrate how a disparity of force can be justified. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/404 "2009-06-02T02:43:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Exactly. That at least is negligent homicide on their part. To put it another way: say Parsons had killed Ersland. Would you (general you, not Cosmodan you) think that the two adults aren’t responsible for Ersland’s death? ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/405 "2009-06-02T02:45:37Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **Li’l Pluck** , I don’t recall anyone in this thread arguing that death or prison is a deterrent to armed robbery. Well, \*\*Captain Carrot \*\*beat me to it (thanks, **Captain Carrot** ), but yes, you recall incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/406 "2009-06-02T02:51:35Z")
> [@Li\_l\_Pluck](#): > > Well, \*\*Captain Carrot \*\*beat me to it (thanks, **Captain Carrot** ), but yes, you recall incorrectly. I answered that statement. Those who were arguing against a deterrent factor were creating a strawman. At least where I’m concerned. I never suggested that shooting robbers could be a deterrent to future robberies. You’ll notice **Captain Carrot** didn’t retort. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/407 "2009-06-02T02:54:01Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Why wouldn’t it? Does a disregard for harm caused to innocent people turn off a person’s ability to perform cost/benefit analyses altogether? > > A criminal, especially one who commits crimes for the material rewards, isn’t going to commit crimes if they believe the probable downsides outweigh the probable upsides. Killing robbers increases the downsides (death) and reduces the upsides (likelihood of getting away with the loot), thereby providing a disincentive to rob people. Well, I was thinking in terms of mentally \*unstable \*persons, something that I’m sure a reading of the paragraph that followed the one that you quoted would’ve clarified before you could even ask me. The post (#237) is still there in its entirety if you want to go back and re-read it. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/408 "2009-06-02T03:09:10Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > To put it another way: say Parsons had killed Ersland. Would you (general you, not Cosmodan you) think that the two adults aren’t responsible for Ersland’s death? In that case, they would be accomplices to murder and I wouldn’t have a problem if they were charged with murder. If you go in with guns out threatening violence and some innocent bystander gets killed, no matter by whom, you damn sure should be held responsible. But in this case, it wasn’t an innocent who got shot; it was one of their own. It was more akin to suicide than murder. Maybe if he was a minor and someone talked him into it, then maybe they it would be logical to convict that person of murder or manslaughter. But I’m assuming he was a grown man who made his own decision and got shot in self defense. He brought it on himself. Karma has been served. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/409 "2009-06-02T03:25:44Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > But in this case, it wasn’t an innocent who got shot; it was one of their own. It was more akin to suicide than murder. Maybe if he was a minor and someone talked him into it, then maybe they it would be logical to convict that person of murder or manslaughter. But I’m assuming he was a grown man who made his own decision and got shot in self defense. He brought it on himself. Karma has been served. First, the kid who was killed was 16. But that’s not the issue, since felony murder is about consequences stemming from underlying crimes. If you accept that the adults would be responsible for Ersland’s death, then you accept that they are responsible for the unintended consequences of the intended act that they began when they handed Parker a gun. If you accept that, then Parker’s death is an unintended consequence for which they are responsible. That Parker might get killed is just as possible as Ersland getting killed; both possible deaths stem from the same underlying act. [This whole time I’ve been calling the dead robber Parsons. It’s Parker.] ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/410 "2009-06-02T03:26:17Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > To put it another way: say Parsons had killed Ersland. Would you (general you, not Cosmodan you) think that the two adults aren’t responsible for Ersland’s death? No, they would be. You knew I was agreeing with you right? ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/411 "2009-06-02T03:44:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > No, they would be. You knew I was agreeing with you right? Yep. That’s why I clarified what I meant by ‘you’. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/412 "2009-06-02T03:53:16Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > In that case, they would be accomplices to murder and I wouldn’t have a problem if they were charged with murder. If you go in with guns out threatening violence and some innocent bystander gets killed, no matter by whom, you damn sure should be held responsible. > > But in this case, it wasn’t an innocent who got shot; it was one of their own. It was more akin to suicide than murder. Maybe if he was a minor and someone talked him into it, then maybe they it would be logical to convict that person of murder or manslaughter. But I’m assuming he was a grown man who made his own decision and got shot in self defense. He brought it on himself. Karma has been served. In this case because it was two adults who talked two minors into armed robbery I especially blame them but the law, as I understand it, is that when you conspire with others to commit an illegal act you share the responsibility for unintended consequences. I think that’s reasonable but I doubt the courts pursue it very literally in most cases. If three people plan to break and enter and one carries a pistol that the other two don’t even know about, if someone is killed the two that participated are still complicit in the killing even though they had technically no part in planning or executing it. Similarly , if men plan an armed robbery and one of them is killed the others who planned it share responsibility for their partners death. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/413 "2009-06-02T11:27:54Z")
[quote=“cosmosdan, post:377, topic:498228”] > [@](#): > > As disappointed as someone suggesting a bet with odds over such an event? Sheesh! Why do you think I offered such attractive odds, if not to see who’d be interested in taking my bet? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/414 "2009-06-02T15:53:23Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No need for PM’s…how many matchsticks do you want to stake? I’m a little disappointed that someone would consider making a profit on an event like this, tbh! :dubious: I know that you may not have been serious, but if you offer odds, you expect to make an otherwise unattractive bet appealing enough to get some one to take the wager. You still expect to win/profit however. > [@](#): > > It’ll only need him to drop his guard once. These are young punk kids, not some sort of hit squad. A good portion of the “crew” is now in the custody of the State of Oklahoma as well. > [@](#): > > Except when they aren’t and don’t.( Ever hear of criminals who rob drug-dealers? What about bank-robbers, are they cowards?). Generalise much? Anyone who breaks the law to get things that don’t belong to them are in my book cowards. They chose the easy path rather than work for what they wanted like 99.9% of the rest of us. If they use force of arms to accomplish their activities, it makes them even a bigger coward by preying on the weak. So yes, criminals by their very actions, are cowards. There is a poster here from the UK who used to burglarize homes. I don’t recall his name, but his actions fit the description quite well. > [@](#): > > Or to shoot robbers cold-bloodedly. Exactly. He’s a proven killer now, regardless of whether one thinks his actions right or wrong. There is, or should be no doubt that he wont hesitate should he find himself in a similar situation again. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/415 "2009-06-02T16:53:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Wait, Oklahoma calls it a “Make My Day” law? WTF is that? At least in Colorado, the term “Make My Day” law was originated as a derisive term employed by the opponents of the law. The term was…what’s the phrase? “taken back”(?)\* by proponents and adopted enthusiastically, but it came from the anti-self defense side of the argument. (Sorry, no cites–but I remember the debate clearly from the time–one of the two papers started using the term “Make My Day” bill to refer to it in the news pages and there was quite a controversy about editorializing that way) \*reclaimed? What’s the term for what some gay people want to do with the word “queer”? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/416 "2009-06-02T17:09:00Z")
If the robber was already dead, aren’t there laws against ‘vandalizing’ a corpse? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/417 "2009-06-02T18:05:36Z")
He wasn’t dead though. The fatal rounds came from the second shooting. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/418 "2009-06-02T18:59:59Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > I know that you may not have been serious, but if you offer odds, you expect to make an otherwise unattractive bet appealing enough to get some one to take the wager. You still expect to win/profit however. My point was to get over the idea that this guy has made himself a prime target for revenge. I phrased it the way I did, out of curiosity > [@JXJohns](#): > > These are young punk kids, not some sort of hit squad. A good portion of the “crew” is now in the custody of the State of Oklahoma as well. And you know this, how? > [@JXJohns](#): > > Anyone who breaks the law to get things that don’t belong to them are in my book cowards. They chose the easy path rather than work for what they wanted like 99.9% of the rest of us. If they use force of arms to accomplish their activities, it makes them even a bigger coward by preying on the weak. Does your book have all its illustrations in black and white? > [@JXJohns](#): > > So yes, criminals by their very actions, are cowards. There is a poster here from the UK who used to burglarize homes. I don’t recall his name, but his actions fit the description quite well. Umm… that’d be me. :rolleyes: > [@JXJohns](#): > > Exactly. He’s a proven killer now, regardless of whether one thinks his actions right or wrong. There is, or should be no doubt that he wont hesitate should he find himself in a similar situation again. He can’t stay in his store forever and it’ll only take one of those cowards with a gun to settle the score. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/419 "2009-06-02T19:13:38Z")
Why don’t you provide us with a few cites of punk-ass criminals like the ones under discussion here taking lethal revenge on citizens who fought back? Right now it just sounds like you huffing and puffing for your fellow criminals. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/420 "2009-06-02T19:40:34Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Why don’t you provide us with a few cites of punk-ass criminals like the ones under discussion here taking lethal revenge on citizens who fought back? Right now it just sounds like you huffing and puffing for your fellow criminals. I think I’d have no problem citing cases of criminals getting revenge on other criminals, so I doubt they’d shy away from honest citizens. Why do you think they have the Witness Protection schemes? If it doesn’t happen often, it’s more likely because the target has upped sticks and gone elsewhere, than because ‘criminals’\* were too afraid to confront them. - I put the word in quotes because. say the dead boy’s cousin with no previous form decides to do the dirty deed? He will be a criminal because he decided to avenge a family member. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=22)