# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/441 "2009-06-03T05:46:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I am forming my opinion from the information that is available. What are you using? Available to you. After the fact. What was available to Mr. Ersland? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/442 "2009-06-03T05:53:07Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Imagination. One must consider what might happen if one doesn’t act. As mentioned before, the guy on the floor could have revived and pulled a gun. His buddies could have come back. There were four total. He at least lowered the odds to three against one. Yeah, and a car might crash through the door running over the crook and making the point moot, by walking towards the robber Ersland might step into the path of a rogue meteorite. I don’t think its very wise, rational, proper or justifiable to shoot somebody 5 times based on things that you can conjure from your imaginations of what might happen ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/443 "2009-06-03T05:58:36Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Yeah, and a car might crash through the door running over the crook and making the point moot, by walking towards the robber Ersland might step into the path of a rogue meteorite. > > I don’t think its very wise, rational, proper or justifiable to shoot somebody 5 times based on things that you can conjure from your imaginations of what might happen Could be wise enough to save your life. And in this case Ersland’s life comes before the guy who would violently rob him. Ersland being the one minding his own business, not hurting a fly. Parker being the one who would put another human’s life in peril for money. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/444 "2009-06-03T06:00:21Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Yeah, and a car might crash through the door running over the crook and making the point moot, by walking towards the robber Ersland might step into the path of a rogue meteorite. > > I don’t think its very wise, rational, proper or justifiable to shoot somebody 5 times based on things that you can conjure from your imaginations of what might happen Are you truly saying it as likely that a car could come crashing through the door as one or more robbers could come running in the door? Oh ,and forgot about the meteorite. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/445 "2009-06-03T06:22:24Z")
Well, Ersland didn’t fire in the direction of the hypothetical friends and family of the robber. He shot, from all the evidence at hand, the incapacitated robber who had less chance of getting up to create a threat than the chance of a meteorite striking in the general vicinity of Ersland. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/446 "2009-06-03T06:24:33Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > A woman getting a serious infection from a dead fetus in her womb. How would this qualify as an abortion? The medical procedure for terminating a pregnancy, that is, extracting a fetus from a uterus before it is born and in a way it cannot survive, is essentially the same _whether the fetus is alive or dead when the procedure begins_. Draconian legal restrictions on late-term abortions either ban D&X outright, even when the fetus is already dead, or require enforcement procedures that make it much more difficult to get D&X done to remove a dead fetus. Late-term abortions may be physically gruesome, but they are not acts of gratuitous savage slaughter as the anti-abortion movement likes to portray them. They are a very tiny minority of all abortions, and the vast majority of them are medically necessary by anybody’s standards. They save women’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/447 "2009-06-03T09:33:33Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Could be wise enough to save your life. And in this case Ersland’s life comes before the guy who would violently rob him. Ersland being the one minding his own business, not hurting a fly. Parker being the one who would put another human’s life in peril for money. On this basis it could also be wise to off every mugger in New York, and every child of every mugger. After all a mugger might maybe kill me, and we all know that kids learn from their parents. This is one thing that I hate about this board, arguements become ad absurditum - Parker “might” have done any number of things, perhaps he also had a stick of dynamite rigged to blow if his heart stopped beating. What you should be debating here is the most likely scenario given the facts at hand, which from what I understand of the reports are: 1. He (Parker) was for all practical purposes unconscious 2. His hands were in view 3. Ersland never saw him with a gun 4. Ersland already had a gun in hand and could have covered him from a position of relative cover, or a difficult position for Parker to aim and shoot 5. Ersland could also have absented himself from the “threat to his life” altogether (not saying its his responsibility to do so, just that he could have) You can argue till the cows come home on what Parker “might” have been carrying, but if you were a betting man, would you really bet on any of those possibilities with odds of even money? Remember you are talking someone’s life here, whether you think he has the right to live or not is a separate debate, but Ersland should not get to be judge, jury and executioner on some sort of spurious “could have” reasoning. This is the same sort of reasoning that the decidinator used in Iraq, and that really won lots of friends and respect right? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/448 "2009-06-03T10:17:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **TWEEEEEEEEET!!!** > > Personals shot at **ivan astikov** are not permitted, here, just because he has admitted to engaging in criminal behavior. > > Everyone knock it off. > > = = = > > OTOH, Ivan, this schtick of jumping into thread to defend the poor beleaguered criminals has long since gotten old. Billy the Kid might have just been caught on the wrong side of history, but most felons who have become folk heroes–Jesse James and that sort–were just evil gits who happened to find a sympathetic press. Your constant attempt to portray the “heroic” qualities of criminals, particularly in threads where that is not an issue, does nothing but disrupt threads. If you want another go at presenting “_crook as wqonderful human being_,” then open up a separate thread to discuss it. (It will likely wind up in the **Pit** , but you can have your say, there.) > > **[/Moderating]** Why would I want to start such a thread when I’ve never said anything like that? Nice attempt at misrepresentation tho’, I’ll give you that much. My purpose _in these kinds of threads_, is not so much to defend the “poor beleaguered criminal” as it is to counter the suggestions of straight-heads who maybe know nothing about criminals, except what they see on COPS, and through the general media. Really, the person you should be having a go at is **JXJohns** , for his constant mantra of _“all criminals are cowards…because I think so”_, if you want to lessen the ignorance around here. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/449 "2009-06-03T10:22:24Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Remember you are talking someone’s life here, … Yeah, Ersland’s. Ersland, who up until Parker and friends decided to visit him was minding his own business. Now maybe Ersland is some former Mafia hitman in the witness protection program, or some super soldier made out of steel, otherwise any benefit of the doubt should go to him and not the criminals who he was defending himself against. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/450 "2009-06-03T10:43:10Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > You can argue till the cows come home on what Parker “might” have been carrying, but if you were a betting man, would you really bet on any of those possibilities with odds of even money? Maybe it was a mercy kill. The first head shot may have left the robber in pain with no chance of survival. Seriously though, if you are ever the victim of an armed home invasion, I can guarantee you will treat all of the intruders as though they are armed, not just the ones you can see holding guns to the heads of your family. “Hmm… he is part of a team doing armed home invasions, but I’ll bet he isn’t even armed. And I’m no doctor, but I can totally tell he’s really out. Honey, go pat him down and make sure.” ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/451 "2009-06-03T10:49:22Z")
Would people be viewing Ersland so favourably if one of the shots he had fired while chasing the retreating robber had hit a passer-by, as a result of his adrenaline-fuelled effort to protect himself and his colleagues? He obviously didn’t hit the robber, but he must have fired them, otherwise, why would he have needed another gun? Is that really the sort of behaviour you want to encourage? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/452 "2009-06-03T11:06:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Would people be viewing Ersland so favourably if one of the shots he had fired while chasing the retreating robber had hit a passer-by, as a result of his adrenaline-fuelled effort to protect himself and his colleagues? He obviously didn’t hit the robber, but he must have fired them, otherwise, why would he have needed another gun? Is that really the sort of behaviour you want to encourage? We could say precisely the same thing if Ersland had dashed to the phone and dialled 911: Would people be viewing Ersland so favourably if the police car responding to his call had hit a passer-by, as a result of his adrenaline-fuelled effort to protect himself and his colleagues? Is that really the sort of behaviour you want to encourage? The fact is that _any_ attempt to respond in a timely manner to an armed robbery has some potential to lead to accidental civilian deaths. Unless you can provide objective evidence that shooting is more likely to lead to civilian injuries than calling 911 then I can only assume that you are advocating that we not respond at all to armed robberies. Is that what you are advocating? If not then your whole argument is a classic example of special pleading. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/453 "2009-06-03T11:34:48Z")
Ivan, based on his previous appearances in threads about criminals and guns, is most likely about to tell us either a) It was Ersland’s fault he got robbed due to inadequate security measures on his part. or b) Ersland should have just given over the money/drugs to the robbers who really meant him no harm. and in addition will definitely tell us c) The four robbers were blamesless in all this; they were forced into a life of crime by a cold, uncaring society. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/454 "2009-06-03T13:57:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In that I have already told Ivan that that subject is off topic for this thread, I would strongly urge you to withdraw the questiona and, if you are really interested, open a separate thread to discuss it. > > [/Modding] I have done so [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11206792#post11206792). **Snowboard** , I would be interested to see what you have to say. I think it was you who I’m referring to in the OP (I think you edited your post when you saw that this topic was off limits here). ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/455 "2009-06-03T14:33:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Well, Ersland didn’t fire in the direction of the hypothetical friends and family of the robber. He shot, from all the evidence at hand, the incapacitated robber who had less chance of getting up to create a threat than the chance of a meteorite striking in the general vicinity of Ersland. You really believe this? A meteorite. As opposed to a guy getting up from a wound which you don’t even know the severity of. Too much TV. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/456 "2009-06-03T14:35:14Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Would people be viewing Ersland so favourably if one of the shots he had fired while chasing the retreating robber had hit a passer-by, as a result of his adrenaline-fuelled effort to protect himself and his colleagues? He obviously didn’t hit the robber, but he must have fired them, otherwise, why would he have needed another gun? Is that really the sort of behaviour you want to encourage? That didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/457 "2009-06-03T14:50:55Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > On this basis it could also be wise to off every mugger in New York, and every child of every mugger. After all a mugger might maybe kill me, and we all know that kids learn from their parents. > > This is one thing that I hate about this board, arguements become ad absurditum - Parker “might” have done any number of things, perhaps he also had a stick of dynamite rigged to blow if his heart stopped beating. > > What you should be debating here is the most likely scenario given the facts at hand, which from what I understand of the reports are: > > 1. He (Parker) was for all practical purposes unconscious > 2. His hands were in view > 3. Ersland never saw him with a gun > 4. Ersland already had a gun in hand and could have covered him from a position of relative cover, or a difficult position for Parker to aim and shoot > 5. Ersland could also have absented himself from the “threat to his life” altogether (not saying its his responsibility to do so, just that he could have) > You can argue till the cows come home on what Parker “might” have been carrying, but if you were a betting man, would you really bet on any of those possibilities with odds of even money? > > Remember you are talking someone’s life here, whether you think he has the right to live or not is a separate debate, but Ersland should not get to be judge, jury and executioner on some sort of spurious “could have” reasoning. > > This is the same sort of reasoning that the decidinator used in Iraq, and that really won lots of friends and respect right? Every mugger should be killed. During the act. To insure 100% that the victims survive. So if his hands were in view and Ersland never saw him with a gun this makes it completely impossible for him to have had one concealed? How do you know that for all practical purposes that Parker was unconscious? And on top of that incapable of regaining consciousness? Relative cover, huh? A difficult position for Parker to aim and shoot? I see that what you want is a fair fight. Parker doesn’t deserve it. And as someone fighting for his life Ersland certainly need not provide it. As someone once said “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck”. So maybe you’d flee and leave the ladies alone, You’ve suggested that is acceptable. But Ersland is made of more than that. Ersland was no judge, jury or executioner. He was a combatant who waged a counter-attack intending to win. Ad absurditum indeed. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/458 "2009-06-03T15:38:35Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > That didn’t happen. If the downed robber _could have_ made a threatening move before Ersland pumped 5 bullets into him, any one of the shots he fired when he went all Rambo and chased the the gunman out of the shop, _could have_ hit little Tommy as he was walking with his Mom. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/459 "2009-06-03T15:41:45Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > So maybe you’d flee and leave the ladies alone, You’ve suggested that is acceptable. But Ersland is made of more than that. Get your eyes checked, Ersland LEFT! He left, gun in hand, to chase down the robber who ran off, leaving the ladies alone with the downed robber. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/460 "2009-06-03T16:43:36Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Every mugger should be killed. During the act. To insure 100% that the victims survive. Mmm. And what should happen when muggers start shooting people from the bushes and robbing their still-bleeding corpses? > [@](#): > > Ersland was no judge, jury or executioner. He was a combatant who waged a counter-attack intending to win. No, he was someone who neutralized a threat, then killed someone who was not threatening him. I imagine the words ‘potential threat’ will come streaming at me over the internet now, and I have to ask who presents more of a potential threat: a known criminal lying on the ground bleeding with a bullet in his head, or you, upright and conscious and perfectly capable of doing me harm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=24)