# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/461 "2009-06-03T17:06:40Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Mmm. And what should happen when muggers start shooting people from the bushes and robbing their still-bleeding corpses? Don’t you have to make quite a leap to assume that muggers and petty thugs will graduate to murder? > [@](#): > > No, he was someone who neutralized a threat, then killed someone who was not threatening him. I imagine the words ‘potential threat’ will come streaming at me over the internet now, and I have to ask who presents more of a potential threat: a known criminal lying on the ground bleeding with a bullet in his head, or you, upright and conscious and perfectly capable of doing me harm. If you are a bystander and not someone who is attempting to rob the store, I would imagine that the biggest threat in the room to you is still the guy on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/462 "2009-06-03T17:07:30Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Mmm. And what should happen when muggers start shooting people from the bushes and robbing their still-bleeding corpses? > > No, he was someone who neutralized a threat, then killed someone who was not threatening him. I imagine the words ‘potential threat’ will come streaming at me over the internet now, and I have to ask who presents more of a potential threat: a known criminal lying on the ground bleeding with a bullet in his head, or you, upright and conscious and perfectly capable of doing me harm. So when confronted by an armed robber you would rather just take the chance that they will just leave when they have the money? Rather than insure that you or someone with you will not be hurt? It’s obvious who is more of a threat. BUt the person on the floor is not a zero threat. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/463 "2009-06-03T17:08:48Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Get your eyes checked, Ersland LEFT! He left, gun in hand, to chase down the robber who ran off, leaving the ladies alone with the downed robber. Then he came back, saw what he considered a threat where there was not one earlier, grabbed another gun with far more stopping power and eliminated the threat. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/464 "2009-06-03T17:09:15Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Mmm. And what should happen when muggers start shooting people from the bushes and robbing their still-bleeding corpses? > > No, he was someone who neutralized a threat, then killed someone who was not threatening him. I imagine the words ‘potential threat’ will come streaming at me over the internet now, and I have to ask who presents more of a potential threat: a known criminal lying on the ground bleeding with a bullet in his head, or you, upright and conscious and perfectly capable of doing me harm. And yeah, “potential threat”. If you’d read the entire thread you’d have encountered it several times. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/465 "2009-06-03T17:10:19Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Get your eyes checked, Ersland LEFT! He left, gun in hand, to chase down the robber who ran off, leaving the ladies alone with the downed robber. Check YOUR eyes. He came back. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/466 "2009-06-03T17:12:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If the downed robber _could have_ made a threatening move before Ersland pumped 5 bullets into him, any one of the shots he fired when he went all Rambo and chased the the gunman out of the shop, _could have_ hit little Tommy as he was walking with his Mom. That’s why one of our most important rules of gun handling is: Know your target and what is beyond it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/467 "2009-06-03T17:23:38Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Check YOUR eyes. He came back. Yeah, after leaving the women in the store alone with a dangerous robber who could leap up at any moment and kill them. At least, I’m apparently supposed to believe the robber was so dangerous that Ersland couldn’t possibly safely be in the same room with him, even though Ersland was armed and could be standing at the ready behind the counter. Yet, it was totally OK to walk out of the store, leaving the unarmed women alone with him, just as long as he came back eventually. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/468 "2009-06-03T17:30:27Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Yeah, after leaving the women in the store alone with a dangerous robber who could leap up at any moment and kill them. You’re gonna have to make up your mind. You’ve been arguing that this wasn’t possible. You can’t just use whatever argument is convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/469 "2009-06-03T17:41:31Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > You’re gonna have to make up your mind. You’ve been arguing that this wasn’t possible. I know it’s not possible, which is why I haven’t been suggesting the Ersland is some awesome dude who pumped 5 shots into a dangerous criminal in an effort to defend himself and his store’s staff. You have suggested that, but haven’t offered up a reason why he would leave his staff alone in the store with this dangerous criminal, instead of staying there to make sure they were safe. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/470 "2009-06-03T17:45:02Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I know it’s not possible, which is why I haven’t been suggesting the Ersland is some awesome dude who pumped 5 shots into a dangerous criminal in an effort to defend himself and his store’s staff. You have suggested that, but haven’t offered up a reason why he would leave his staff alone in the store with this dangerous criminal, instead of staying there to make sure they were safe. Adrenaline. His mind racing. The heat of the moment. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/471 "2009-06-03T17:46:40Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I know it’s not possible, which is why I haven’t been suggesting the Ersland is some awesome dude who pumped 5 shots into a dangerous criminal in an effort to defend himself and his store’s staff. You have suggested that, but haven’t offered up a reason why he would leave his staff alone in the store with this dangerous criminal, instead of staying there to make sure they were safe. If you know it’s not possible why did you use the possibility in your argument? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/472 "2009-06-03T18:00:01Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I know it’s not possible, which is why I haven’t been suggesting the Ersland is some awesome dude who pumped 5 shots into a dangerous criminal in an effort to defend himself and his store’s staff. You have suggested that, but haven’t offered up a reason why he would leave his staff alone in the store with this dangerous criminal, instead of staying there to make sure they were safe. I’ll try… He dropped robber #1 with a headshot using a small caliber pistol. He went out the door to determine the intentions of robber #2. He notices that robber two is running like coward leaving his pal behind. Once outside, he realizes that he has turned his back on a potential threat. Then he comes back, see what he considers a threat where there was not one earlier, grabs another gun with far more stopping power and eliminates the threat. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/473 "2009-06-03T18:06:42Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Then he comes back, see what he considers a threat where there was not one earlier, then walks past said threat keeping his back to the threat for 10 or more seconds while he roots around in a drawer to > [@](#): > > grabs another gun with far more stopping power and eliminates the threat. I don’t know about you, but if I see a guy who is so dangerous that I MUST kill him in order to be safe, I’m not turning my back on him to locate a more powerful gun, I’m using the gun I’ve got in my hand, or at least keeping my eye on him at all times. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/474 "2009-06-03T18:13:28Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > And yeah, “potential threat”. If you’d read the entire thread you’d have encountered it several times. Yeah, that’s why I saw it coming and nipped it in the bud. Do you disagree that you, upright and conscious, present more of a ‘potential threat’ then someone lying unconscious and bleeding on the ground? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/475 "2009-06-03T18:18:29Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Adrenaline. His mind racing. The heat of the moment. Well then, maybe his decision to kill the kid wasn’t all that well thought out either. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/476 "2009-06-03T18:20:55Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Yeah, that’s why I saw it coming and nipped it in the bud. Do you disagree that you, upright and conscious, present more of a ‘potential threat’ then someone lying unconscious and bleeding on the ground? Post #462 ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/477 "2009-06-03T18:22:21Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > then walks past said threat keeping his back to the threat for 10 or more seconds while he roots around in a drawer toI don’t know about you, but if I see a guy who is so dangerous that I MUST kill him in order to be safe, I’m not turning my back on him to locate a more powerful gun, I’m using the gun I’ve got in my hand, or at least keeping my eye on him at all times. That works too. I am sure that if either of us end up in a similar situation, we will now know exactly how to do it right. Don’t forget to smile for the camera. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/478 "2009-06-03T18:23:44Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Post #462 I prefer 461. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/479 "2009-06-03T18:34:28Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > So when confronted by an armed robber you would rather just take the chance that they will just leave when they have the money? Rather than insure that you or someone with you will not be hurt? We aren’t talking about an armed robber any more. We’re talking about an unconscious man lying on the ground with a bullet in his head. And no, I wouldn’t continue to fire once the threat is neutralized. > [@](#): > > It’s obvious who is more of a threat. Then shooting one of you (hypothetically, of course) would be justified? Just on the basis that you pose more of a potential threat than an unconscious man? I don’t know that the guy would even pull the trigger, but I feel confident you would. You are more of a threat. > [@](#): > > BUt the person on the floor is not a zero threat. Yes, our murderer could’ve tripped over him on the way to get another gun. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/480 "2009-06-03T18:39:23Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Don’t you have to make quite a leap to assume that muggers and petty thugs will graduate to murder? Why wouldn’t they? Because it’s against the law? > [@](#): > > If you are a bystander and not someone who is attempting to rob the store, I would imagine that the biggest threat in the room to you is still the guy on the ground. And so rather than call the police while covering the guy with a weapon, you’d just kill him. Okay, but you can’t convince me that wouldn’t make you a murderer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=25)