# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/521 "2009-06-04T04:55:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That is not what the video shows. The video shows Ersland leaning down to put the pistol in Parker’s abdomen. If Parker was suddenly jerking around in a suspicious manner, then Ersland’s natural reaction would be to shoot from his standing position at Parker on the floor–one does not lean in to a threatening situation. If Parker did not jerk until Ersland was crouched over him, then it would seem that Ersland would have been firing as he jerked back from Parker’s “threatening” motion. Neither happened. Unlike most, I am willing to consider other scenarios, this one included. The video is not conclusive, we all know it and we see what we want. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/522 "2009-06-04T04:57:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I suggest you look up what “reasonable doubt” entails. I’ll get right on that. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/523 "2009-06-04T07:24:32Z")
What amazes me is all the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. “I’d do this”, or “I’d do that” in a given scenario. Who the hell actually knows what they’d do until they were standing in his shoes? No one. All we can say for sure is that one moment Ersland was serving customers and the next his world is turned upside down. Maybe he shouldn’t have plugged the kid again. Maybe the kid was coherent enough to threaten Ersland with revenge. Who the hell knows? Maybe Ersland is a cold blooded killer. Yet if he was rational enough to do that why wasn’t he rational enough to pull the tapes from the video camera implicating himself in murder? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/524 "2009-06-04T08:34:38Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > What amazes me is all the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. “I’d do this”, or “I’d do that” in a given scenario. Who the hell actually knows what they’d do until they were standing in his shoes? No one. All we can say for sure is that one moment Ersland was serving customers and the next his world is turned upside down. Maybe he shouldn’t have plugged the kid again. Maybe the kid was coherent enough to threaten Ersland with revenge. Who the hell knows? Maybe Ersland is a cold blooded killer. Yet if he was rational enough to do that why wasn’t he rational enough to pull the tapes from the video camera implicating himself in murder? Maybe because while his shooting is murky at best and quite possibly not criminal, tampering with evidence is 100% of the time ? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/525 "2009-06-04T16:31:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But for your benefit : essentially, you dig up one story about somebody shot in the head who didn’t lose consciousness, and from it derive that people shot in the head are unlikely to lose consciousness. “Unlikely”? That is a disingenuous argument. No one said unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/526 "2009-06-04T16:32:57Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Yes, I’m serious. Plus, I, along with quite a few others here, are displaying far more logic on this issue than you are. Your posts are, essentially, gainsaying/naysaying. If this thread gets moved to the Pit or if someone decides to Pit you regarding your posts in this thread, I’ll be happy to explain it further to you in that forum. You think that calling me an asshole in the Pit is going to prove your point? Fer gosh’ sake, you believe it’s more likely for a meteorite to appear than for a person who may not be fully incapacitated to revive from unconsciousness! And that’s you saying that. I haven’t really seen anyone else supporting that notion. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/527 "2009-06-04T20:14:23Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > “Unlikely”? That is a disingenuous argument. No one said unlikely. Let me guess : you don’t know what the legal term “reasonable doubt” means either ? There’s a reason (heh) for the “reasonable” qualifier. Yes, it is possible the kid suddenly regained consciousness like a slasher flick monster. It’s also possible he was dancing the limbo naked right under the counter line. It is, however, very unlikely. Besides, a jury doesn’t (and, by extension, we don’t) pass judgment on what might be, but what we do know is, and apply Occam’s Razor accordingly. It’s probable that a guy, shot in the head in such fashion that a forensic doc working with firsthand data feels certain would make anyone unconscious, was indeed unconscious, medical miracles notwithstanding. It’s probable that a guy who calmly and deliberately walks to get another gun and turns his back on the “threat” doesn’t feel threatened. Not 100% certain, but most probable. If you want to hold onto your extraordinary disculpating scenario, and convince us it does indeed cast _reasonable doubt_ on Ersland’s actions, you have to show extraordinary proof that it is likely, not just possible. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/528 "2009-06-04T21:59:34Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > If you want to hold onto your extraordinary disculpating scenario, and convince us it does indeed cast _reasonable doubt_ on Ersland’s actions, you have to show extraordinary proof that it is likely, not just possible. I guess this is where we differ. It would require extraordinary proof for me to consider convicting someone for shooting one of a team of armed robbers who surprised him in the middle of his work day with a gun up to his skull. The intruder being unconscious isn’t the issue. Did Ersland believe he was unconscious, and did he believe he could wake up if so? And even if I did find his actions to be criminal, the fact that he was surprised with a gun to his head would be a mitigating factor. I imagine you would be shocked to find your life about to end, and everything happened extremely quickly after that point. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/529 "2009-06-04T22:28:57Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > I guess this is where we differ. > > It would require extraordinary proof for me to consider convicting someone for shooting one of a team of armed robbers who surprised him in the middle of his work day with a gun up to his skull. Shooting him the first time isn’t the issue. He was perfectly within his rights, everyone agrees on this. It’s the next 5, at point blank, on an unconscious kid that stick in people’s craw. Because at _that_ time he had no gun to his head, and he wasn’t surprised anymore either (surprise only lasts one round :)) > [@](#): > > The intruder being unconscious isn’t the issue. Did Ersland believe he was unconscious, and did he believe he could wake up if so? Of course it’s the issue. If you don’t feel threatened, it can’t be self defense. If the attacker can’t attack you anymore, you can’t keep attacking him and still claim self-defense. It just doesn’t work that way. Ersland \*was \*defending himself. And then he wasn’t. But he kept shooting. Apparently quite calmly and deliberately, too (although I do realize some people “ice up” when they’re scared out of their wits or very, very angry). > [@](#): > > And even if I did find his actions to be criminal, the fact that he was surprised with a gun to his head would be a mitigating factor. Sure. But that’s a separate issue. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/530 "2009-06-05T02:13:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Shooting him the first time isn’t the issue. He was perfectly within his rights, everyone agrees on this. It’s the next 5, at point blank, on an unconscious kid that stick in people’s craw. Because at _that_ time he had no gun to his head, and he wasn’t surprised anymore either I don’t know about that. If I was at work and all of a sudden had a gun pointed at me and felt my life about to end, the shock would probably last at least 30 seconds. YMMV. In that state of shock, I can easily imagine thinking that the intruder on the ground was still a threat, since for all I knew they could be faking or wake up any second. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Of course it’s the issue. If you don’t feel threatened, it can’t be self defense. If the attacker can’t attack you anymore, you can’t keep attacking him and still claim self-defense. It just doesn’t work that way. Ersland \*was \*defending himself. And then he wasn’t. But he kept shooting. Apparently quite calmly and deliberately, too (although I do realize some people “ice up” when they’re scared out of their wits or very, very angry). That is what I said. The issue is whether he believed the intruder was unconscious or could wake up any second. Not whether he was actually unconscious. Also, thank you for at least acknowledging the possibility that Ersland is not a robot soldier who remained perfectly calm seconds after having his life nearly ended by armed robbers. I don’t know why that seems to be the default conclusion. Far more likely is that he “iced up” due to extreme shock and fear. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/531 "2009-06-05T02:31:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Shooting him the first time isn’t the issue. He was perfectly within his rights, everyone agrees on this. It’s the next 5, at point blank, on an unconscious kid that stick in people’s craw. Because at _that_ time he had no gun to his head, and he wasn’t surprised anymore either (surprise only lasts one round :)) I’ve seen this a lot. I’d like top point out that we don’t _know_ that the kid was unconscious, do we? The pharmacist said the wounded robber regained consciousness and was trying to get up. \*Maybe \* that’s not the case but I’m one of those who would give the benefit of the doubt to the guy being robbed at gunpoint without very strong evidence to the contrary. I watched the video several times. I saw him walk by the downed robber with apparently no concern and then come back. The fact that he got to point blank range indicates to me he didn’t see a weapon. It’s possible he thought the downed robber was dead and when he heard him trying to get up he decided to make sure that threat was ended. It’s also possible he just executed the robber out of rage. Still, without more substantial evidence I wouldn’t be so quick to judge him guilty of executing an unconscious person. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/532 "2009-06-05T02:48:34Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’ve seen this a lot. I’d like top point out that we don’t _know_ that the kid was unconscious, do we? The pharmacist said the wounded robber regained consciousness and was trying to get up. \*Maybe \* that’s not the case but I’m one of those who would give the benefit of the doubt to the guy being robbed at gunpoint without very strong evidence to the contrary. > > I watched the video several times. I saw him walk by the downed robber with apparently no concern and then come back. The fact that he got to point blank range indicates to me he didn’t see a weapon. It’s possible he thought the downed robber was dead and when he heard him trying to get up he decided to make sure that threat was ended. > > It’s also possible he just executed the robber out of rage. Still, without more substantial evidence I wouldn’t be so quick to judge him guilty of executing an unconscious person. It now appears that Mr. Ersland may have been less than truthful in his statements to news media and the police. [cite](http://newsok.com/druggist-freed-teen-arrested/article/3373432?custom_click=lead_story_title) > [@](#): > > A police detective said Ersland lied to the police and news reporters about the shooting. Ersland, for instance, said the robbers shot at him. "Fortunately, God made them miss me, except for this minor scratch,” he told The Oklahoman. "I was able to return fire and protect the girls’ lives. God was helping me.” Prosecutors say there is no evidence anyone but Ersland fired inside the store. I found [this too](http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-shooting-justified-story,0,3766042.story): (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > An expert opinion was sought, and Charles Smith of the Oklahoma Rifle Association, which lobbied hard for the state’s Stand Your Ground law, stepped forward to weigh in. **After watching the surveillance video, Smith agreed that the first shot at Parker was fully justified. But when Ersland walked back into the store, grabbed another gun, and fired five shots to the stomach of the teen, Smith said he’d have to draw the line there.** So he agrees with the district attorney’s decision, although he concedes he doesn’t know what was going through Ersland’s mind at the time of the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/533 "2009-06-05T02:57:30Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > I don’t know about that. If I was at work and all of a sudden had a gun pointed at me and felt my life about to end, the shock would probably last at least 30 seconds. YMMV. Sorry, it was a D&D joke. In D&D, when you attack somebody by surprise, you get a free round to hit them, before the “real” combat starts. A round is defined as lasting 6 seconds (although you wouldn’t believe how much stuff players can cram in those 6 seconds :p). > [@](#): > > In that state of shock, I can easily imagine thinking that the intruder on the ground was still a threat, since for all I knew they could be faking or wake up any second. > > That is what I said. The issue is whether he believed the intruder was unconscious or could wake up any second. Not whether he was actually unconscious. But that’s the thing : self-defense doesn’t apply when you think your aggressor \*may \*be a threat at some undeterminate point in the future. It’s about immediate danger - you’re supposed to wait until the last second to shoot. Self-defense, especially with deadly force, comes into play for imminent harm, not hypothetical future harm. Of course, what constitutes “the last second” is a grey area, but consider this hypothetical : You are attacked by a goon with a gun. He’s not the sharpest banana in the drawer, so you manage to draw your gun too, and it ends in a Mexican standoff. Your assailant loses it, drops his gun and runs away. You draw a bead on him and shoot him in the back from 50 yards. Is that self-defense ? And if not, how is a man running away different from an unconscious, visibly unarmed man ? > [@](#): > > Also, thank you for at least acknowledging the possibility that Ersland is not a robot soldier who remained perfectly calm seconds after having his life nearly ended by armed robbers. > > I don’t know why that seems to be the default conclusion. Far more likely is that he “iced up” due to extreme shock and fear. Well, my own emotional response to the video is “dude is pissed as Hell and wants someone to pay for the fright”. Which is most probably bullshit - that’s just how \*I \*would react, thus how I read his actions in my frame of reference. He could just as well be a robot soldier, or a Klan member or whatever. Heck, for all I know he really did want to play it safe and rationally deduced it was the morally right thing to do. I’m sure there are tons of reasons why one guy would shoot another. Still, while his intent and emotional state (and the eloquence of his lawyer on this regards, should it go to court) might conceivably make the difference between manslaughter, murder in the 3rd and murder in the 2nd, one’d have to work really hard to convince me that there’s absolutely no foul. Like I said earlier, I could have understood one more bullet. But 5, and at point-blank, really feels like spiteful overkill. Emphasis on kill, as in intent to. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/534 "2009-06-05T11:17:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It now appears that Mr. Ersland may have been less than truthful in his statements to news media and the police. [cite](http://newsok.com/druggist-freed-teen-arrested/article/3373432?custom_click=lead_story_title) > > I found [this too](http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-shooting-justified-story,0,3766042.story): (bolding mine) Neither of those are conclusive are they? It doesn’t affect my position. I watched the video trying to determine if the robber’s with the gun fired. I can’t tell. Even if the robber’s gun wasn’t fired Ersland still believed he was in mortal danger. for me the bottom line is we just can’t tell and in this case I’d rather give Ersland the benefit of the doubt and not prosecute someone for defending themselves. Really helpful for them to publically announce Ersland wouldn’t be allowed to carry a gun anymore wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/535 "2009-06-05T23:35:32Z")
It’s a public trial, what are they supposed to do, lie? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/536 "2009-06-06T03:58:55Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > It’s a public trial, what are they supposed to do, lie? I meant the reporters. They didn’t need to lie. Just have sense enough to leave out that detail. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/537 "2009-06-06T04:15:02Z")
I posted this on facebook to get some reactions from friends. Like SDMB the responses were mixed. One friend related a relevant story. Years ago his older brother was working at Ho Jos. One night they were having an after hours Bday party for one of the girls and two armed men came in through a skylight. Two girls were in the upstairs locker room changing and the perps tied them up. When older brother went to look for them he caught a glimpse of one robber and went to the office to get his 9mm. When he started back upstairs they were coming down and they opened fore with fly automatic weapons. Now other employees were fleeing and finding places to hide. Older brother hid behind a desk or counter and waited. When they came in and he had a shot he took it. He wounded one and the other fled once he realized victims might shoot back. Here’s the point where older brother could have finished off the wounded perp but he didn’t. He hesitated waiting to see if they would flee or return fire or what. The wounded robber went back upstairs to where the the two girls were tied up and raped them while the police were getting organized and deciding what to do. Older brother still regrets not taking that perp out when he had the chance and saving the girls from rape. He also lost his job for even having a weapon at work. IMO that shows the point of why it’s so hard to judge the pharmacist. Sometimes , when faced with an armed and potentially deadly threat, the only sure remedy is to make very sure your enemy is incapable of hurting you or anyone else. An act of mercy can wind up hurting you or someone else. Would you rather have to live with the fact you killed an armed robber or that you didn’t when you could have and that cost you or someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/538 "2009-06-06T06:10:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Neither of those are conclusive are they? It doesn’t affect my position. I watched the video trying to determine if the robber’s with the gun fired. I can’t tell. Even if the robber’s gun wasn’t fired Ersland still believed he was in mortal danger. > > for me the bottom line is we just can’t tell and in this case I’d rather give Ersland the benefit of the doubt and not prosecute someone for defending themselves. > > Really helpful for them to publically announce Ersland wouldn’t be allowed to carry a gun anymore wasn’t it? He’s not being prosecuted for defending himself. He’s being prosecuted for murder. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/539 "2009-06-06T11:17:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > He’s not being prosecuted for defending himself. He’s being prosecuted for murder. Really? What a revelation! Are you suggesting just the fact that he’s being prosecuted for murder means he’s guilty? I didn’t think it worked that way. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/540 "2009-06-06T14:51:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I posted this on facebook to get some reactions from friends. Like SDMB the responses were mixed. One friend related a relevant story. > Years ago his older brother was working at Ho Jos. One night they were having an after hours Bday party for one of the girls and two armed men came in through a skylight. Two girls were in the upstairs locker room changing and the perps tied them up. When older brother went to look for them he caught a glimpse of one robber and went to the office to get his 9mm. When he started back upstairs they were coming down and they opened fore with fly automatic weapons. Now other employees were fleeing and finding places to hide. Older brother hid behind a desk or counter and waited. When they came in and he had a shot he took it. He wounded one and the other fled once he realized victims might shoot back. Here’s the point where older brother could have finished off the wounded perp but he didn’t. He hesitated waiting to see if they would flee or return fire or what. The wounded robber went back upstairs to where the the two girls were tied up and raped them while the police were getting organized and deciding what to do. Older brother still regrets not taking that perp out when he had the chance and saving the girls from rape. He also lost his job for even having a weapon at work. > > IMO that shows the point of why it’s so hard to judge the pharmacist. Sometimes , when faced with an armed and potentially deadly threat, the only sure remedy is to make very sure your enemy is incapable of hurting you or anyone else. An act of mercy can wind up hurting you or someone else. Would you rather have to live with the fact you killed an armed robber or that you didn’t when you could have and that cost you or someone else? Is this supposed to be a true story? It seems incredibly unlikely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=28)