# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/541 "2009-06-06T16:09:24Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > Is this supposed to be a true story? It seems incredibly unlikely. Not calling you a liar Cosmo, but your friend of a friend’s brother might have exaggerated a bit. The full auto gun part of the story makes it pretty hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/542 "2009-06-06T16:10:09Z")
Unlikely doesn’t mean impossible. Even if it didn’t happen, something like it could or probably has. That’s why you don’t show mercy. The bad guys brought it on themselves. It’s too bad if they assumed that victims won’t fight back savagely to stay alive. Even if Ersland shouldn’t have taken those last five shots he should be given a pass because he was in a hell on earth scenario that he never would have chosen for himself. If it’s determined that Parker was guilty of robbery (duh) then Ersland should be excused for fighting to survive. Oh, but a victim shouldn’t be able to consider possibilities in the context of a life and death struggle, boo hoo. Here’s a concept, it should be determined that Parker’s death could not be classified as murder because he was guilty of robbery. Now that would be a precedent to set. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/543 "2009-06-06T18:02:53Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > The full auto gun part of the story makes it pretty hard to believe. The full auto part is way easier to believe than the “I just got shot breaking into a Ho Jo’s, instead of running away, I’m going to stop off in the locker room to rape a couple of girls before the police arrive.” and the “I just shot a guy who’s broken into the restaurant with fully automatic weapons, instead of disarming him and making sure he doesn’t get away until the police show up, I’ll ‘hesitate’ and let him have free run of the place for as long as he wants.” ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/544 "2009-06-06T18:12:13Z")
Prediction: he pleads to manslaughter 2, suspended sentence. No way he actually gets found guilty of murder after having a gun in his face 30 seconds earlier. Nobody wants that trial. I’m not arguing that this is the way it SHOULD be. I’m saying this is the way it IS. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/545 "2009-06-06T18:14:27Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The full auto part is way easier to believe than the “I just got shot breaking into a Ho Jo’s, instead of running away, I’m going to stop off in the locker room to rape a couple of girls before the police arrive.” and the “I just shot a guy who’s broken into the restaurant with fully automatic weapons, instead of disarming him and making sure he doesn’t get away until the police show up, I’ll ‘hesitate’ and let him have free run of the place for as long as he wants.” I suppose, if you look at it that way… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/546 "2009-06-06T20:41:26Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Not calling you a liar Cosmo, but your friend of a friend’s brother might have exaggerated a bit. The full auto gun part of the story makes it pretty hard to believe. I’m retelling it the way it was told to me and I know my friend is not a liar or prone to great exaggeration. The full auto surprised me as well but his brother said he ran he heard the bullets hitting. Regardless, even if the full auto is embellishment, and they had had automatic pistols, the point remains the same as it relates to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/547 "2009-06-06T20:50:20Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The full auto part is way easier to believe than the “I just got shot breaking into a Ho Jo’s, instead of running away, I’m going to stop off in the locker room to rape a couple of girls before the police arrive.” and the “I just shot a guy who’s broken into the restaurant with fully automatic weapons, instead of disarming him and making sure he doesn’t get away until the police show up, I’ll ‘hesitate’ and let him have free run of the place for as long as he wants.” You’re assuming a lot of things you have no information about in order to dis the story. You’re needlessly assuming something negative about someone in a life and death situation and what you think they should have done. Been in a few gunfights have ya? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/548 "2009-06-06T21:09:12Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Here’s a concept, it should be determined that Parker’s death could not be classified as murder because he was guilty of robbery. Now that would be a precedent to set. Ah, but of course. Criminals have no rights, because they’re criminals ! And terrorists have no rights, because they’re terrorists. Lots of that going around these days… Go back to the 12th century, please. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/549 "2009-06-06T22:09:46Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Unlikely doesn’t mean impossible. Even if it didn’t happen, something like it could or probably has. > > That’s why you don’t show mercy. Exactly. And the headshot robber on the floor could have had an self-aiming, automatic weapon implanted in his guts that emerged, _Alien_ style, after he was on the floor for half a minute. Even if it didn’t happen, something like it could. Or probably has in the movies sometime. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/550 "2009-06-06T23:19:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ah, but of course. Criminals have no rights, because they’re criminals ! And terrorists have no rights, because they’re terrorists. Lots of that going around these days… > > Go back to the 12th century, please. Never been there. A criminal in the act of being a criminal does not require the victim to wait for a judge and jury to show up. The victim must do what he/she can to survive. That old tired saying comes to mind: Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/551 "2009-06-06T23:21:59Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Exactly. And the headshot robber on the floor could have had an self-aiming, automatic weapon implanted in his guts that emerged, _Alien_ style, after he was on the floor for half a minute. > > Even if it didn’t happen, something like it could. Or probably has in the movies sometime. Talk about hyperbole. The perp just having a simple concealed pistol on his person is so far-fetched? Ersland couldn’t know if he did or not. He shouldn’t have to take the chance. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/552 "2009-06-06T23:24:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ah, but of course. Criminals have no rights, because they’re criminals ! And terrorists have no rights, because they’re terrorists. Lots of that going around these days… > > Go back to the 12th century, please. When Ersland took that first shot, do you believe Parker had a right not get shot? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/553 "2009-06-06T23:29:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ah, but of course. Criminals have no rights, because they’re criminals ! And terrorists have no rights, because they’re terrorists. Lots of that going around these days… > > Go back to the 12th century, please. And oh yeah, criminals shouldn’t have rights. As terrorists should have no rights. Now _alleged_ criminals and terrorists. If somebody is standing there with a gun to your face demanding your money, is that person a criminal? Or just _alleged_ since no trial has happened yet? ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/554 "2009-06-06T23:37:28Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Talk about hyperbole. The perp just having a simple concealed pistol on his person is so far-fetched? Ersland couldn’t know if he did or not. He shouldn’t have to take the chance. You had no problems with accepting the extremely unlikely story from Cosmosdan’s Facebook friend. In fact you didn’t care if it was true, because it “could” have been. My post was implying that your evaluation of the risks faced by the pharmacist was also extremely questionable. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/555 "2009-06-06T23:47:29Z")
Fact is stranger than fiction. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/556 "2009-06-07T00:51:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ah, but of course. Criminals have no rights, because they’re criminals ! And terrorists have no rights, because they’re terrorists. Lots of that going around these days… > > Go back to the 12th century, please. When someone shows intent to use deadly force on you you have every right to use deadly force on them in self defense. That not a matter of the crimminal having rights, it’s a matter of survival and the victims right to protect their life, the lives of others and their property. I hope you’d at least agree with that. In this case there’s a serious question about the 2nd shooting of someone who’d just seconds ago committed an armed robbery. Was the pharmicist still threatened enough to warrent those fatal shots? Maybe he wasn’t. It may have been an act of rage or something else. I’m only saying is that unless there is really conclusive evidence against him, {more conclusive than the video} I’d rather give the robbee the benefit of the doubt rather than the robber. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/557 "2009-06-07T01:10:51Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > You had no problems with accepting the extremely unlikely story from Cosmosdan’s Facebook friend. In fact you didn’t care if it was true, because it “could” have been. > > My post was implying that your evaluation of the risks faced by the pharmacist was also extremely questionable. You can believe what you want to but you really have no reason to judge that story extremely unlikely. There is really nothing outrageously far fetched in it. You don’t know me or my friend but I’ve known him for years and know his character. He’s not a liar or prone to gross exaggeration. Allowing for some embellishment I believe the basics which are, His brother working at Ho Jos was involved in a an armed breakin and shooting. He shot one perp but didn’t kill him and this crimminal later raped a waitress. As I said, substitute pistols for filly automatic weapons if you like , the point remains the same. Or just use your imagination and a little reason. In a life and death confrontation, some hesitation or showing mercy to someone who was willing to shoot you , could result in you or someone else being hurt. The way to make sure that doesn’t happen is to make sure the person who threatened you is unable to do it. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/558 "2009-06-07T02:13:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > You can believe what you want to but you really have no reason to judge that story extremely unlikely. There is really nothing outrageously far fetched in it. You don’t know me or my friend but I’ve known him for years and know his character. He’s not a liar or prone to gross exaggeration. Allowing for some embellishment I believe the basics which are, His brother working at Ho Jos was involved in a an armed breakin and shooting. He shot one perp but didn’t kill him and this crimminal later raped a waitress. > As I said, substitute pistols for filly automatic weapons if you like , the point remains the same. Or just use your imagination and a little reason. > > In a life and death confrontation, some hesitation or showing mercy to someone who was willing to shoot you , could result in you or someone else being hurt. The way to make sure that doesn’t happen is to make sure the person who threatened you is unable to do it. Even if it is true, it’s not really applicable to this situation. In your story the wounded criminal, is still mobile, still armed and heading back upstairs where more people are. Yes, the older brother should have shot him again, and I’m sure if he had, no one would be calling him a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/559 "2009-06-07T03:03:04Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > In your story the wounded criminal, is still mobile, still armed and heading back upstairs where more people are. Yes, the older brother should have shot him again, and I’m sure if he had, no one would be calling him a murderer. A lot of people would consider it murder if the criminal appeared to be running away. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/560 "2009-06-07T03:33:40Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > Even if it is true, it’s not really applicable to this situation. In your story the wounded criminal, is still mobile, still armed and heading back upstairs where more people are. Yes, the older brother should have shot him again, and I’m sure if he had, no one would be calling him a murderer. It is not _exactly analogous_ but the point being made is perfectly _applicable_. \*\* If\*\* the pharmacist did hear or see what he had thought was an unconscious or dead robber starting to move, trying to get up, he had no way of knowing if he had a weapon on him. He had to choose between several options. He chose the one that made him and the others safest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=29)