# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/601 "2009-06-08T03:17:27Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > I assumed he had a weapon because you said he had one, you never said he dropped it, and I can think of no logical reason why he _would_ drop it, unless he intended on surrendering (which he apparently didn’t since he ran away), or if was shot out of his hand Western style. How about the logic of dropping it when he was shot? Does that seem too far fetched for you? Skepticism is a healthy thing but it’s also good to be aware of what you don’t know and, rather than assume things based on sparse details , ask for clarification while refraining from unnecessary judgment. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’m skeptical of the story you posted. As you said, I don’t know your friend, so unlike you, I can’t take into account any knowledge of how trustworthy he is. I know you said he is, but, I don’t know you either. I’m not calling you a liar (I read the sticky), I just have no gauge of your credibility one way or another. So it’s best to judge it as far fetched? Granted you have no reason to assume it’s all true but you also have no real reason to assume it’s not. I’ve seen lot’s more unlikely things on true police videos or read about them. That’s what gets me about people calling “bullshit” > [@](#): > > In other words, all I have to go on is the actual contents of the story, which happens to have multiple believability issues. Which if pressed, I could individually point out, but that would probably be going a little too far off track. We’re already riding the rails. I agree it’s off topic and I only told the story to make a related point. Still, considering I just pointed out a very obvious reason you seem to have casually missed while judging it unbelievable you might want to consider there are very real understandable answers to the your other doubts. > [@](#): > > If this were the other way around, if I had came here an posted that story, I have a hard time believing you wouldn’t be equally skeptical. If not, well, than I’m sorry to say, you’re a very gullible person. Having no reason to embrace or doubt I would refrain from judgment. There’s simply nothing outrageously far fetched about the story with the possible exception of full auto weapons. Let me pose a question and present a perfectly reasonable answer Why didn’t the wounded perp escape when he had the chance rather than stay and attack the waitresses. Doesn’t make sense. Until he was shot he didn’t know anyone but his partner and him had a gun. They were in a building at night that they didn’t know that well so neither was positive which way was out. He couldn’t run because he was shot in the hip so he scooted back the way he had come which led back upstairs. Once there he had no way out because he couldn’t leave by the skylight they had entered through. Wounded, scared and angry he barricades himself in and takes out his frustrations on the girls. There are lots of perfectly reasonable possibilities with a little thought. > [@](#): > > I think you’re missing my point. It’s not the fact that there are differences, it what the differences are. The whole point of contention is whether or not the robber in the pharmacy was sufficiently incapacitated, that lethal force was unwarranted. Agreed. That’s the part the available evidence isn’t clear about. > [@](#): > > In your story the criminal clearly wasn’t incapacitated at all. he was able walk, was likely still armed, and heading in the direction of possible victims. Again you assume too much. > [@](#): > > If you post a story as an example of a possible outcome of Ersland not killing that kid (not specifically someone being raped, but you know what I mean), then the circumstances of that story that led to that outcome should be similar to those in those actually occurred. The man in your story was able to rape those girls because he wasn’t incapacitated, even arguably so. That was not the case in the pharmacy incident, that’s why it isn’t applicable. Good Lord man, think! The point is that if my friends older brother had pumped five bullets into that mans belly the girls would not have been assaulted. That’s the regret he has to live with. It may very well come down to whether or not the robber was conscious, depending on how the laws are written in that state. Or, it may come down to the jury’s impression of Ersland’s state of mind during the event. If based on the evidence available to them (likely more than we have) they believe he still felt threatened, or felt the other employees in the store were threatened while robber was on the ground, or they feel that due to the circumstances, he wasn’t thinking clearly, he’ll like get off, otherwise he’s likely going to prison. > [@](#): > > From what I’ve seen in the videos, his actions appear very deliberate. He doesn’t show signs of someone who feels threatened. He turns his back to the guy on the floor more than once. He walks directly to his second gun, and it doesn’t appear to be a reaction to anything happening in the room. I watched to see if there was any sign of the perp regaining consciousness and trying to get up. The only thing I noticed is that Ersland might be _hurrying_ over to Parker {as much as he can} Maybe that means he just realized Parker is alive and conscious. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/602 "2009-06-08T14:12:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Good Lord man, think! The point is that if my friends older brother had pumped five bullets into that mans belly the girls would not have been assaulted. That’s the regret he has to live with. Yes. I get the point of your story. I got it when I first read it. What I don’t get is why you posted it. I take it that its supposed to be an example of what could have happened if the pharmacist hadn’t shot the robber 5 more times, as in, someone else being hurt after the perp was wounded. The whole issue here, though, is that a lot of people believe the perp in the pharmacy was fully incapacitated already, after being shot the first time. Whereas, in your story, it should be obvious to anyone that the perp wasn’t incapacitated after the first shot. He was able to rape those girls _ **because** _ he was still mobile. In the pharmacy, the perp was no longer mobile. Your story isn’t applicable. For it to be applicable, it would need to involve a perp in a similar situation (i.e. on the ground, in mobile, possibly appearing unconscious, and appearing to be much less of a threat), coming to, and hurting someone. I have to go to work now, so I’ll reply to the rest of your post when I get back. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/603 "2009-06-08T18:59:27Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > How about the logic of dropping it when he was shot? Does that seem too far fetched for you? Skepticism is a healthy thing but it’s also good to be aware of what you don’t know and, rather than assume things based on sparse details , ask for clarification while refraining from unnecessary judgment. There’s no real cause and effect between being shot and dropping your gun. Yes, it _could’ve_ happened, but given that’s rather important detail to leave out of a story like that, it’s a much bigger assumption to thing that he _had_ dropped the gun. But let’s say he did drop it. Maybe after being shot he was going to surrender, but then changed his mind just after dropping the gun and instead ran upstairs. OK, he’s unarmed, but he’s still running back to where the other possible victims are. Being a grown man, he still could possibly overpower those girls (since The Older Brother probably didn’t know they were tied up), and seeing as how fully automatic weapons by their self seem a bit much, it wouldn’t unreasonable to think he may have another weapon on him. TOB taking another shot would have been completely understandable. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > So it’s best to judge it as far fetched? Granted you have no reason to assume it’s all true but you also have no real reason to assume it’s not. I’ve seen lot’s more unlikely things on true police videos or read about them. That’s what gets me about people calling “bullshit” I have multiple reason to assume it’s not, and they’re all within the text of the story. I didn’t watch this in a true police video, nor did I read it in a reliable publication. I read it on an internet message board, in a post by someone I don’t happen to know. When I read or hear a rather fantastic story from a source I don’t know to be reliable, my default response is skepticism. Otherwise, I’d believe every unlikely story that gets forwarded into my email inbox. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I agree it’s off topic and I only told the story to make a related point. Still, considering I just pointed out a very obvious reason you seem to have casually missed while judging it unbelievable you might want to consider there are very real understandable answers to the your other doubts. > > Having no reason to embrace or doubt I would refrain from judgment. There’s simply nothing outrageously far fetched about the story with the possible exception of full auto weapons. But, if I had posted that story, you _should_ have reason to doubt. And out of all those reasons the automatic weapons was one of the less glaring. And, of course you could come up with possible explanations for each of those issues, that’s why I said it was unlikely, not impossible. But they add up, and for such a short story, my count of six issues is a bit much. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Again you assume too much. You said he went back upstairs. That covers walking, and heading towards possible victims, I already covered likely still armed. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I watched to see if there was any sign of the perp regaining consciousness and trying to get up. The only thing I noticed is that Ersland might be _hurrying_ over to Parker {as much as he can} Maybe that means he just realized Parker is alive and conscious. I don’t know, he seemed to be moving basically the same speed the whole time to me. Which makes sense, given the situation I’d think he would want to go full speed right out of the gate. Which wasn’t very fast, probably because of that back brace. The forensics lab could probably use the different camera angles create a 3D computer simulation of the whole event and determine his exact speed at any given moment, but that’s a bit beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/604 "2009-06-08T19:30:51Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > Yes. I get the point of your story. I got it when I first read it. What I don’t get is why you posted it. I take it that its supposed to be an example of what could have happened if the pharmacist hadn’t shot the robber 5 more times, as in, someone else being hurt after the perp was wounded. Yes but in a nonspecific way. A wounded perp is still dangerous to you and others. A dead one isn’t. > [@](#): > > The whole issue here, though, is that a lot of people believe the perp in the pharmacy was fully incapacitated already, after being shot the first time. Whereas, in your story, it should be obvious to anyone that the perp wasn’t incapacitated after the first shot. He was able to rape those girls _ **because** _ he was still mobile. In the pharmacy, the perp was no longer mobile. I agree, but we’ve established that we \*\*don’t know \*\*if the downed perp in the drugstore was trying to get up or not. In court case about homicide it’s beyon d reasonable doubt rather than more likely than not. That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Regardless of what you or I think is \*probably true \* without clear strong evidence showing the robber could not have been trying to get up the reasonable doubt goes to the guy who was being robbed at gunpoint. IMHO. What we don’t want is for a hospitalized druggist to talk about his regret because he didn’t finsh off an armed robber who manged to get away and hurt someone in the process. See how it applies now? > [@](#): > > Your story isn’t applicable. For it to be applicable, it would need to involve a perp in a similar situation (i.e. on the ground, in mobile, possibly appearing unconscious, and appearing to be much less of a threat), coming to, and hurting someone. Sorry, I don’t agree. Based on the point I’m trying to make I think it is. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/605 "2009-06-08T20:38:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Yes but in a nonspecific way. A wounded perp is still dangerous to you and others. A dead one isn’t. > I agree, but we’ve established that we \*\*don’t know \*\*if the downed perp in the drugstore was trying to get up or not. In court case about homicide it’s beyon d reasonable doubt rather than more likely than not. That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Regardless of what you or I think is \*probably true \* without clear strong evidence showing the robber could not have been trying to get up the reasonable doubt goes to the guy who was being robbed at gunpoint. IMHO. > What we don’t want is for a hospitalized druggist to talk about his regret because he didn’t finsh off an armed robber who manged to get away and hurt someone in the process. See how it applies now? > Sorry, I don’t agree. Based on the point I’m trying to make I think it is. First of all,with the medical examiner saying he was unconscious, if nothing else comes out that can prove that wrong (which is unlikely, since medical examiners do this for a living), I’d say there’s clear, strong evidence that he wasn’t getting back up. In regards to the story, even in the very unlikely situation the robber did begin to move, that’s still far different than already up, still moving, and heading towards other victims. > [@jimpatro](#): > > Which people say this? You’re pulling that out of your ass. Why do you think prosecutors go on in court about how heinous the crime was even though that has nothing to do with whether or not the defendant did it? Why do think defense attorneys often try to attack the character of the victim even when it in no way legally justifies the crime or prove the defendants innocence? It’s because juries are made up of ordinary people who are affected by those things. The same way, Ersland claiming to have been shot or shot at, makes him appear more of a victim, therefor people would be more sympathetic toward him, and more likely to believe his actions were justified. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/606 "2009-06-09T02:04:46Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > First of all,with the medical examiner saying he was unconscious, if nothing else comes out that can prove that wrong (which is unlikely, since medical examiners do this for a living), I’d say there’s clear, strong evidence that he wasn’t getting back up. Please provide a cite where the medical examiner is saying he was definitely unconscious. > [@](#): > > In regards to the story, even in the very unlikely situation the robber did begin to move, that’s still far different than already up, still moving, and heading towards other victims. And exactly what difference does that make? Moving, trying to get up. indicates he might pose a threat since seconds ago he was a culprit in an armed robbery. We’re talking about a druggist not a trained police officer. If a criminal who was willing to kill you moments ago is conscious and moving then he’s a threat. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/607 "2009-06-09T02:44:25Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Please provide a cite where the medical examiner is saying he was definitely unconscious. _Prosecutors charged Ersland with murder after the medical examiner reported Parker was alive, **unconscious** and on the floor when Ersland fired five shots into his abdomen, killing him._ –[The Oklahoman](http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-pharmacy-robbery-suspect-arrested-this-afternoon-in-wewoka/article/3374800) > [@cosmosdan](#): > > And exactly what difference does that make? Moving, trying to get up. indicates he might pose a threat since seconds ago he was a culprit in an armed robbery. We’re talking about a druggist not a trained police officer. If a criminal who was willing to kill you moments ago is conscious and moving then he’s a threat. It makes a big difference, since by time Ersland got back with the gun, the robber was still on the ground, and still unarmed. It’s still very debatable whether he should have fired his gun. While in your story, it’s far less debatable. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/608 "2009-06-09T02:47:14Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I posted this on facebook to get some reactions from friends. Like SDMB the responses were mixed. One friend related a relevant story. > Years ago his older brother was working at Ho Jos. One night they were having an after hours Bday party for one of the girls and two armed men came in through a skylight. Two girls were in the upstairs locker room changing and the perps tied them up. When older brother went to look for them he caught a glimpse of one robber and went to the office to get his 9mm. When he started back upstairs they were coming down and they opened fore with fly automatic weapons. Now other employees were fleeing and finding places to hide. Older brother hid behind a desk or counter and waited. When they came in and he had a shot he took it. He wounded one and the other fled once he realized victims might shoot back. Here’s the point where older brother could have finished off the wounded perp but he didn’t. He hesitated waiting to see if they would flee or return fire or what. The wounded robber went back upstairs to where the the two girls were tied up and raped them while the police were getting organized and deciding what to do. Older brother still regrets not taking that perp out when he had the chance and saving the girls from rape. He also lost his job for even having a weapon at work. > > IMO that shows the point of why it’s so hard to judge the pharmacist. Sometimes , when faced with an armed and potentially deadly threat, the only sure remedy is to make very sure your enemy is incapable of hurting you or anyone else. An act of mercy can wind up hurting you or someone else. Would you rather have to live with the fact you killed an armed robber or that you didn’t when you could have and that cost you or someone else? Somebody with a gunshot wound went and raped two girls while police were getting organised? That seems very unlikely. The friend went and got a gun, but didn’t ask staff to leave along the way? This story just doesn’t seem to square with logic ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/609 "2009-06-09T02:49:46Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > There’s no real cause and effect between being shot and dropping your gun. Yes, it _could’ve_ happened, but given that’s rather important detail to leave out of a story like that, it’s a much bigger assumption to thing that he _had_ dropped the gun. Comon. You just said you couldn’t think of\* any\* logical reason why he would drop it and I provided a very logical and fairly obvious reason that you hadn’t thought of. It’s not about cause and effect. It’s about plausibility. Being shot and dropping your weapon is pretty dam plausible. Because of that I’m also suggesting that all the points in the story you find far fetched are have equally plausible reasonable answers. According to the evidence we just saw, just because you haven’t thought of it, doesn’t mean it’s highly unlikely. > [@](#): > > I have multiple reason to assume it’s not, and they’re all within the text of the story. I didn’t watch this in a true police video, nor did I read it in a reliable publication. I read it on an internet message board, in a post by someone I don’t happen to know. When I read or hear a rather fantastic story from a source I don’t know to be reliable, my default response is skepticism. Otherwise, I’d believe every unlikely story that gets forwarded into my email inbox. Non Sequiter. Skepticism can mean you acknowledge it may or may not be true, which is different than calling it very unlikely. I understand that there’s no reason to eagerly accept a story on a discussion board as true. I’d say there’s equally no reason to dismiss it as untrue when you lack details and evidence. There’s nothing that far fetched about the story. I purposely told an abbreviated version lacking in details because it wasn’t about convincing anyone but rather making a point that related to the thread subject. The lack of detail has nothing to do with believability. It logically means you don’t have enough details to make a conclusive judgment. Instead you assume things without evidence and declare it’s extremely unlikely. That’s your call. It doesn’t matter to me. > [@](#): > > But, if I had posted that story, you _should_ have reason to doubt. And out of all those reasons the automatic weapons was one of the less glaring. And, of course you could come up with possible explanations for each of those issues, that’s why I said it was unlikely, not impossible. But they add up, and for such a short story, my count of six issues is a bit much. Considering the example we just discussed I’d say your math is what should be doubted. Regardless, your belief or doubt is irrelevant to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/610 "2009-06-09T03:02:43Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Considering the example we just discussed I’d say your math is what should be doubted. Regardless, your belief or doubt is irrelevant to the thread. So is your bullshit fantasy story. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/611 "2009-06-09T03:19:40Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Years ago his older brother was working at Ho Jos. One night they were having an after hours Bday party for one of the girls and two armed men came in through a skylight. Two girls were in the upstairs locker room changing and the perps tied them up. When older brother went to look for them he caught a glimpse of one robber and went to the office to get his 9mm. When he started back upstairs they were coming down and they opened fore with fly automatic weapons. Now other employees were fleeing and finding places to hide. Older brother hid behind a desk or counter and waited. When they came in and he had a shot he took it. He wounded one and the other fled once he realized victims might shoot back. Here’s the point where older brother could have finished off the wounded perp but he didn’t. He hesitated waiting to see if they would flee or return fire or what. The wounded robber went back upstairs to where the the two girls were tied up and raped them while the police were getting organized and deciding what to do. Older brother still regrets not taking that perp out when he had the chance and saving the girls from rape. He also lost his job for even having a weapon at work. ITT: badly written fiction. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/612 "2009-06-09T03:25:46Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Somebody with a gunshot wound went and raped two girls while police were getting organised? That seems very unlikely. > > The friend went and got a gun, but didn’t ask staff to leave along the way? > > This story just doesn’t seem to square with logic What type of\* logic \*do you apply to an armed robbery with gunplay from robber and intended victim? Perhaps you can explain the \*logic \* of a serial rapist or a simple compulsive shoplifter. IOW, how the hell do you _logically_ explain extreme occurrences in the human condition? Think of outlandish things you’ve read about or seen reported as fact and accepted and then tell me how this story is so very unlikely. Things that don’t make rational sense happen in real human life all the time and especially in violent crime. I understand healthy skepticism but the desire to piss on this story you know so little about baffles me. I don’t see anything any more unlikely about it than the true story we’re discussing in the thread. Imagine that’s a story someone related rather than actual news. Is it unlikely? I suppose, but we know unlikely things do happen among a population of hundreds of millions. It’s unlikely to win the lottery but yet someone just won over 200 million. Do you believe that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/613 "2009-06-09T03:28:55Z")
So 1 out 200 million people shot will rape your sisters? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/614 "2009-06-09T03:32:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > ITT: badly written fiction. Ask a cop if they’ve ever heard of anything like that and they’ll tell you some doozies. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/615 "2009-06-09T03:36:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So is your bullshit fantasy story. This really hurts because I value your opinion so much. Oh wait. I don’t value it at all. Whew! What a relief. Honestly, I don’t get the seemingly random arbitrary need to piss on this story but if it makes you feel special or clever or whatever, knock yourself out. What I’d point out to the skeptics who seem to think you have reasoned this out is that violent crime and other extreme human behavior often doesn’t follow a logical reasonable pattern. IMO imagining you can logically decide whether this is plausible based on so few details is in itself illogical and unreasonable but hey.YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/616 "2009-06-09T03:36:08Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Somebody with a gunshot wound went and raped two girls while police were getting organised? That seems very unlikely. > > The friend went and got a gun, but didn’t ask staff to leave along the way? > > This story just doesn’t seem to square with logic You seem to think something unlikely can’t happen. People who fall out of planes and live would tell you different. Or do you believe that never really happens? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/617 "2009-06-09T03:41:40Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > First of all,with the medical examiner saying he was unconscious, if nothing else comes out that can prove that wrong (which is unlikely, since medical examiners do this for a living), I’d say there’s clear, strong evidence that he wasn’t getting back up. > > In regards to the story, even in the very unlikely situation the robber did begin to move, that’s still far different than already up, still moving, and heading towards other victims. > > Why do you think prosecutors go on in court about how heinous the crime was even though that has nothing to do with whether or not the defendant did it? Why do think defense attorneys often try to attack the character of the victim even when it in no way legally justifies the crime or prove the defendants innocence? > > It’s because juries are made up of ordinary people who are affected by those things. The same way, Ersland claiming to have been shot or shot at, makes him appear more of a victim, therefor people would be more sympathetic toward him, and more likely to believe his actions were justified. Anyone with a concealed carry and tactical training, and that’s a lot of people, will absolutely try to get the first shot off. If the bad guy does then you might be too dead to counter. And none will feel guilty for doing it. It’s how you stay alive. It just is not a point of contention in a robbery trial. A victim obviously must protect themselves from the threat of a gun pointed at them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/618 "2009-06-09T03:43:42Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Ask a cop if they’ve ever heard of anything like that and they’ll tell you some doozies. Let’s see. 1 someone is shot, after repelling, mission impossible style through a skylight 2 they wonder off, instead of fleeing, seeking medical treatment, or dealing with the still armed older brother How about someone cough up a cite for this fiction or retract it? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/619 "2009-06-09T03:45:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > ITT: badly written fiction. Hasty opinion. The old adage about them is true. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/620 "2009-06-09T03:46:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So 1 out 200 million people shot will rape your sisters? And evidently 6 out of 10 posters will be opinionated enough to make a snap judgment based on very little information and seemingly enjoy pissing on a story for no good reason. Go figure. That’s enough of a hijack for me. For the sake of GD and the thread I’m done with this foolishness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=32)