# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/621 "2009-06-09T03:46:31Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Let’s see. > > 1 someone is shot, after repelling, mission impossible style through a skylight > 2 they wonder off, instead of fleeing, seeking medical treatment, or dealing with the still armed older brother > How about someone cough up a cite for this fiction or retract it? You just really have no idea what’s out there, huh? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/622 "2009-06-09T04:10:31Z")
**cosmosdan** , Tarantino has nothing on you. Except of course, oodles of talent and a grasp of verisimilitude to real life events. And as far-fetched as he can be that’s saying something. * * * As for the OP, as many here have said before, initial defensive shot, justified and deserved. Thereafter, a clearly cut case of vigilantism. IOW, a murder. I too am mystified that this case is even up for “debate.” It’s simply putrid pulp fiction to do so. Shoot them all and let Og sort it out! Yew-haaw! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/623 "2009-06-09T04:12:54Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > You just really have no idea what’s out there, huh? Apparently whatever is out there means you should shoot every single person, including jay walkers, just in case they rape your sisters. Seriously it’s a pretty ill thought out point. His point seems to be “you should kill everone you have the chance because you don’t know what they might do.” By that logic you should be shooting anyone with in range. One of them could rape your sister you know. That’s why the law calls for reasonable force. People laying unconscious in a pool of their own blood aren’t reasonably likely to rape your sister. Anything beyond reasonable force is vigilantism, and I thought you agreed vigilantism was bad? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Hasty opinion. The old adage about them is true. Shovel bullshit, Yoda does not. Not Yoda, you are. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/624 "2009-06-09T04:23:02Z")
I was talking about the really wierd things that happen in this great big world. You need to explore what’s out there. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/625 "2009-06-09T04:36:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Story here](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7713776). > > IMO, this guy should be found guilty of murder, but given some recent vigilante cases in Texas, where the state’s new(ish, now) Castle law was invoked, I’m not at all confident that things will play out that way. > > FTR, I have no problem with the fact that he shot the guy. It’s going back after the guy isn’t a threat and pumping 5 more rounds into him that bothers me. > > So, Dopers: folk hero or murderer? So, going back to the OP, if the Castle Law was invoked in Texas and the “vigilantes” were found to be within the law then they weren’t really vigilantes were they? And, no, not a folk hero nor a murderer, just a survivor. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/626 "2009-06-09T05:14:45Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Let’s see. > > 1 someone is shot, after repelling, mission impossible style through a skylight > 2 they wonder off, instead of fleeing, seeking medical treatment, or dealing with the still armed older brother > How about someone cough up a cite for this fiction or retract it? [Here’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11224678#post11224678) the cite you warrant. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/627 "2009-06-09T05:23:15Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **cosmosdan** , Tarantino has nothing on you. Except of course, oodles of talent and a grasp of verisimilitude to real life events. And as far-fetched as he can be that’s saying something. Feel free to visit the “cite” I just posted. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/628 "2009-06-09T05:26:06Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Shovel bullshit, Yoda does not. Not Yoda, you are. But meaningless gibberish you certainly are. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/629 "2009-06-09T05:57:14Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > So, going back to the OP, if the Castle Law was invoked in Texas and the “vigilantes” were found to be within the law then they weren’t really vigilantes were they? > > And, no, not a folk hero nor a murderer, just a survivor. And if wishes were fishes you’d eat like a king. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/630 "2009-06-09T06:38:02Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > That’s why the law calls for reasonable force. People laying unconscious in a pool of their own blood aren’t reasonably likely to rape your sister. Anything beyond reasonable force is vigilantism, and I thought you agreed vigilantism was bad? Says the guy who thinks cruise missiles should be launched at government buildings in North Korea until they release two journalists. [Link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11223688&postcount=31) An interesting take on the world you have there. A guy defending himself from a criminal can’t ensure that the criminal won’t get up and attack him, but random people who may not even know about any journalists being held captive, let alone have anything to do with it, deserve to be blown up to release them. Maybe Ersland was tired of dealing with the criminals like you’re tired of dealing with NK? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/631 "2009-06-09T14:16:48Z")
ITT: **cosmodan** doesn’t know what the fuck cite means. A pit thread of you complaining about people wanting a cite, and people pointing out your story is prolly bullshit isn’t a cite. > [@Uzi](#): > > Says the guy who thinks cruise missiles should be launched at government buildings in North Korea until they release two journalists. [Link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11223688&postcount=31) > > An interesting take on the world you have there. A guy defending himself from a criminal can’t ensure that the criminal won’t get up and attack him, but random people who may not even know about any journalists being held captive, let alone have anything to do with it, deserve to be blown up to release them. Maybe Ersland was tired of dealing with the criminals like you’re tired of dealing with NK? Would you tell me the part where a teenager, laying unconscious in a pool of his own blood, who could easily be shot if he moved, posed a threat? Yes using the threat of military force against a brutal dictator and the government that supports him to free our own people is **totally** the same thing as murdering an unconscious teenager laying a pool of his own blood. Clearly you feel one must be an absolute pacifist to oppose any murder. Lets say may positions are totally inconstant however. How the fuck does that change whether I’m right or or wrong in this thread? Do you have anything better then an Ad Hominid attack? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/632 "2009-06-09T15:00:15Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Lets say may positions are totally inconstant however. How the fuck does that change whether I’m right or or wrong in this thread? It doesn’t. I agree with your stance on NK. Why kowtow to lunatics. I just wouldn’t do it for people who don’t understand the proper usage of a GPS. Now if they were on the correct side of the border and were abducted, then my stance would change. But if I was the US, I’d be talking to China and getting them on board at is was their border that would have been violated. I would prefer that people don’t have to kill other people. Some people just need killing, though. People in the process of committing violent acts should expect it. And until society (ie. the cops) arrive to take control of the situation, I’m inclined to look the other way, or give a strong benefit of the doubt, for those who have to, through no fault of their own, protect themselves from the dregs of that society. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/633 "2009-06-09T15:37:10Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > ITT: **cosmodan** doesn’t know what the fuck cite means. A pit thread of you complaining about people wanting a cite, and people pointing out your story is prolly bullshit isn’t a cite. I’m sorry. I should have posted a picture of me grabbing my crotch so you’d understand sarcasm when you read it. I know exactly what a cite is and that’s why I chose " here’s the cite _you warrant_" and used quotes in the next reference to it. Sheesh! > [@](#): > > Would you tell me the part where a teenager, laying unconscious in a pool of his own blood, who could easily be shot if he moved, posed a threat? you’re assuming facts you don’t know are true. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/634 "2009-06-09T15:43:26Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Somebody with a gunshot wound went and raped two girls while police were getting organised? That seems very unlikely. > > The friend went and got a gun, but didn’t ask staff to leave along the way? > > This story just doesn’t seem to square with logic Can we keep in mind that the subject of the thread is already an incredibly unlikely event? Armed robberies happen but what are the chances the average person will be involved in a shooting with an armed criminal? Pretty dam unlikely right? However, when the category already is “shootings between armed robbers and armed civilians”, a pretty small group I’d suspect, the chances that something outrageous and otherwise highly unlikely might happen goes up considerably, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/635 "2009-06-09T15:48:10Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > you’re assuming facts you don’t know are true. No, Toa is going by the facts as we know them. He’s forming an opinion from the available evidence and the expert opinion of the Medical Examiner. There’s no assumption at all, other than that the ME is in fact qualified and that the security video has not been edited or tampered with in some undetectable way. Those assumptions are perfectly reasonable. You, however, are asking us to assume that you have a friend, assume that your friend has a brother, assume that said brother worked at a HoJos, assume that a HoJos has a skylight, a locker room, 2 perps armed with fully automatic weapons, etc. etc. You are asking us to assume that your whole story is true. If you could just provide a cite, we could stop assuming and actually deal with known facts. It’s you are full of assumptions, and you want us to join you. Sorry, but that’s not how this is gonna work. You are the one full of assumptions. When come back, bring facts. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/636 "2009-06-09T16:28:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > And if wishes were fishes you’d eat like a king. Wishes? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/637 "2009-06-09T16:34:14Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > ITT: **cosmodan** doesn’t know what the fuck cite means. A pit thread of you complaining about people wanting a cite, and people pointing out your story is prolly bullshit isn’t a cite. > > Would you tell me the part where a teenager, laying unconscious in a pool of his own blood, who could easily be shot if he moved, posed a threat? > > Yes using the threat of military force against a brutal dictator and the government that supports him to free our own people is **totally** the same thing as murdering an unconscious teenager laying a pool of his own blood. Clearly you feel one must be an absolute pacifist to oppose any murder. > > Lets say may positions are totally inconstant however. How the fuck does that change whether I’m right or or wrong in this thread? > > Do you have anything better then an Ad Hominid attack? Prolly? Ad hominid? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/638 "2009-06-09T16:38:27Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Prolly? Ad hominid? [Prolly](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prolly%20) is a perfectly cromulent word. I admit I chuckled at _ad hominid_, tho. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/639 "2009-06-09T16:40:50Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, Toa is going by the facts as we know them. He’s forming an opinion from the available evidence and the expert opinion of the Medical Examiner. There’s no assumption at all, other than that the ME is in fact qualified and that the security video has not been edited or tampered with in some undetectable way. Those assumptions are perfectly reasonable. > > You, however, are asking us to assume that you have a friend, assume that your friend has a brother, assume that said brother worked at a HoJos, assume that a HoJos has a skylight, a locker room, 2 perps armed with fully automatic weapons, etc. etc. You are asking us to assume that your whole story is true. If you could just provide a cite, we could stop assuming and actually deal with known facts. It’s you are full of assumptions, and you want us to join you. > > Sorry, but that’s not how this is gonna work. You are the one full of assumptions. When come back, bring facts. Assuming he has a friend is hard for you? You can’t warp around that his friend has a brother? And so on. Boy, it’s just all too unbelievable.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/640 "2009-06-09T17:35:58Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Assuming he has a friend is hard for you? > You can’t warp around that his friend has a brother? > And so on. > Boy, it’s just all too unbelievable.:rolleyes: I can well believe that he has a friend, and that the friend might have a brother. I don’t know that those things are true, but I’m wiling to assume that they are true. I’m not expecting a cite for that part of the story. Heck, I’ll even grant that there might be a place known as HoJo’s. 😃 The rest is, ahem, not so likely. In fact, I doubt it so strongly, I’ll call bullshit and wait for a cite, as was requested earlier. Still waiting… :rolleyes: [crickets] And the issue isn’t just that it’s “unbelievable”, the issue with his story is that it’s not supported at all by any verifiable source. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=33)