# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/661 "2009-06-10T15:31:17Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > If two intruders with ski masks burst into your room and one of them points a gun at you, it is reasonable to assume and act as though both have guns. Yeah, and no one here has argued that it wasn’t reasonable for Mr. Ersland to act the way he did when he first started shooting. No one. Not me, not you, not anyone else who has posted in this thread. But once the robbery is over (1 man down, 1 man gone) it is not reasonable to continue to act as if he (Mr. Ersland) is still under imminent threat **without any evidence to support the assumption, and with plenty of evidence that there is no imminent threat.** Mr. Parker was on his back, his hands were empty, **and according to the ME he was unconscious.** He also had just been shot in the head. The law does not allow you to shoot people because you assumed that they were a threat. > [@](#): > > Not only is it reasonable, if there are people around you need to protect it would be improper not to make such an assumption. > > If it was your own or your family’s lives in danger of ending, you would make such an assumption too. FFS, stop telling me what I would do. You don’t know me. You don’t know my family. For all you know, I hate my family and would watch passively, filled with glee, as an intruder did what I secretly wished I could do. If you want to describe what _you_ would do, go right ahead. But leave me out of it. I mean, wtf, are some kind of über-control-freak? > [@](#): > > I hadn’t read any version of the story that mentioned the ME saying that, thank you for finding a cite. > > Given the mental state the shopkeeper was likely in right after robbers burst into his store and aimed a gun at him, it wouldn’t have taken much to consider the downed intruder a threat. > > This is why early on in the thread I said it would come down to the mental state of the shopkeeper. He didn’t know what we know after the fact. He knew, or should have known, that the guy he stepped over twice, and then returned to within 2 feet of to shoot in the belly, had empty hands. Mr. Ersland has a bad back, he’s not blind. He had to have looked at Mr. Parker. When he saw no gun, he should have restrained his trigger finger. > [@](#): > > When I watched it I didn’t think I needed more than a rough estimate of the time. I don’t think it changes anything. You didn’t say it was a rough estimate of time, you said it was a fact. It wasn’t. Your “fact” was wrong. You haven’t been using facts in your arguments at all. You’ve just been trying to justify your opinion, which seems to have been formed right after reading the headline “Pharmacist shoots robber, gets charged with murder”. > [@](#): > > I only mention it because it seems you are completely unable to relate to people who work in drug stores, and how they might react when intruders burst in and aim a gun at them. This statement is so far diverged from reality, I have to wonder if you read anything other than the headline of the news story before you first posted. Go back and read the **very first post in the thread**. > [@](#): > > So if you were the victim of a home invasion, intruders in ski masks aim a gun at your daughter, and you shoot them even after they are down, you are justified. No, you aren’t. The law does not allow you to execute people. > [@](#): > > Because you aren’t a robot. When criminals in ski masks try to murder you and your family, your mind goes into a different mode, and you end the threat. Once the men are down, the threat is over. You are talking about ending their lives, nothing more. You are advocating the cold blooded murder of defenseless humans, without a trial. You are advocating bloodthirst, not justice. In fact, what you are advocating flies in the face of everything that millions of people have fought and died for: our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, and our whole way of life. You are directly repudiating the justice system, the right to a trial by jury, and due process. > [@](#): > > But that’s different. Because it’s a home. Not a store. Totally different. Why? It’s different because it’s another fact you keep getting wrong. Again, you aren’t using facts to discuss the situation at hand. If, to you, a home invasion is no different than a drug store robbbery, why do you keep bringing it up? Just deal with the actual situation, which was a drug store robbery. ---
**Author:** ![rowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@rowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/662 "2009-06-17T20:02:36Z")
Can a medical examiner really determine whether or not a dead person was conscious at a specific time? I’m genuinely curious about this… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/663 "2009-06-17T20:15:31Z")
The ME isn’t saying he was unconscious at a “specific time”, he’s saying that the injury to his head was severe enough to render him unconscious. In terms of whether or not they can do it, determining the outcome of injury seems to me to be a pretty major aspect of the job. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/664 "2009-06-20T02:08:28Z")
For the 4th or 5th time, it doesn’t matter what outlandish scenarios you can come up. The actions by Ersland on the video clearly show that he felt no danger and was not in fear for his life when he finished off the robber. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/665 "2009-07-27T22:40:26Z")
I know that this is now old news and all, but I’ve still been following the case as best I can; the application of so-called Castle Laws interests me. Anyway, new information is now coming to light that could call into question nearly everything Mr. Ersland has said publicly. It seems that he has lied about his military service. [link](http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=10793326) > [@](#): > > After the shooting, Ersland told police and reporters that he was a veteran of the first Gulf War and suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder. > > But Ersland’s military records released to the Oklahoma County District Attorney’s office dispute that. The records show Ersland being at Altus Air Force Base. At this point, it certainly seems to me that Mr. Ersland knew that he had crossed the line into impropriety and he was doing what he could to further buoy his image (and taint the facts in his favor). So, just an update. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/666 "2009-07-28T01:48:06Z")
Killing thugs who attacked your and attempted to rob your property is not murder. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/667 "2009-07-28T01:50:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Killing thugs who attacked your and attempted to rob your property is not murder. I suggest you read thru the whole thread before posting your uninformed opinion(s). ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/668 "2009-07-28T01:52:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I suggest you read thru the whole thread before posting your uninformed opinion(s). How would he know if the robber had a gun on him and would use it even though he was wounded? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/669 "2009-07-28T03:16:58Z")
There is already enough heat generated in this thread without re-opening old wounds. I am closing it. Anyone who wants to discuss the matter rationally may open a new thread, otherwise, take it to [The BBQ Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=5). [/Modding] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=33)