# Folk Hero or Murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228 "2009-05-31T02:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/141 "2009-05-31T18:56:28Z")
**Death of Rats** > [@](#): > > If the end result is that robbers are more likely to kill thier victims first, is it still heroic? Because the lesson I see here for would-be thieves is to shot first as the store owner may be armed. They already do that sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/142 "2009-05-31T18:56:49Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > If the end result is that robbers are more likely to kill thier victims first, is it still heroic? Because the lesson I see here for would-be thieves is to shot first as the store owner may be armed. My sister-in-law manages a bank branch in Ohio. They pay off-duty cops to be security guards so that an armed person is right in the bank. During a robbery attempt, the robber walked in and, knowing about the off-duty cop there, had his gun out and started shooting before anything else. In the exchange of fire, the robber was wounded and the cop killed. [Robber fled, was later caught and is on death row]. By way of contrast, a family friend spent his career in the RCMP. Their policy for responding to bank robberies was to stop outside the bank and wait for the robbers to exit, then arrest them. In no cases they handled this way was anyone hurt or shots fired. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/143 "2009-05-31T18:59:10Z")
Definitely murder. Several of his actions indicate that he was not acting in self defense. (1) If you are acting in self defense, you do not chase after the threat (2) He would not have nonchalantly walked past the guy on the ground if he thought he was a threat (3) He would have covered him with his gun when he walked back in (4) He would not have turned his back on a threat (5) He would not have stopped to reload in range of the threat (6) He would not have closed within such close distance of a threat (7) If the guy on the ground made a move you would have seen a reaction on the shooters face. You don’t. He walked over there with the intention of shooting him. I give people a lot of lee way when acting in self defense. It isn’t their fault that the situation occured, and people sometimes lose their head in heated situations. I don’t arm chair quarterback and say well if he did this or if he did that. The difference in this situation is that the guys actions demonstrated little fear. In fact, they show just the opposite. He appeared to be very much in control and appears to have shot the robber because he wanted to kill him for robbing his store. I don’t like the idea that the robber was scum that deserved to die. It is true that if you intentionally put the life of someone else in danger you open yourself up for a lethal self defense reaction. I have little sympathy for those that die in these situations. However, I also believe in the possibility of redemption. This robber isn’t a sadist that tortured people to death, he isn’t a rapist that got pleasure from the misery of others. He is an idiot that was willing to put the lives of others in danger for monetary gain. That is something I can see going away with age and wisdom. Unfortunately, that is a chance this person will never get. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/144 "2009-05-31T19:00:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > One question I have is: > > WHAT THE FUCK IS THE RElEVANCE OF THE VICTiM’S race? > **Bryan Ekers** May you forgive me for embellishing and emphasizing my question. 😉 Some people think the robber’s race was quite relevant. Maybe the shop clerk wouldn’t have killed him if he wasn’t black. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/145 "2009-05-31T19:02:26Z")
> [@treis](#): > > He is an idiot that was willing to put the lives of others in danger for monetary gain. That is something I can see going away with age and wisdom. Unfortunately, that is a chance this person will never get. Armed robbers don’t get wiser with age. They just get better at robbing people. Ask a cop, judge, or anyone in the field of criminal law. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/146 "2009-05-31T19:04:32Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Armed robbers don’t get wiser with age. They just get better at robbing people. Ask a cop, judge, or anyone in the field of criminal law. [Special Pleading](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading) ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/147 "2009-05-31T19:04:35Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > So do you believe that all people convicted of armed robbery should be given the death penalty regardless of situation? Just because you don’t have the right to live doesn’t mean the government has the right to kill you. The government wasn’t threatened by the robber, but the shop clerk was. The shop clerk had every right to respond to the threat with deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/148 "2009-05-31T19:04:44Z")
**treis** > [@](#): > > However, I also believe in the possibility of redemption. This robber isn’t a sadist that tortured people to death, he isn’t a rapist that got pleasure from the misery of others. He is an idiot that was willing to put the lives of others in danger for monetary gain. That is something I can see going away with age and wisdom. Unfortunately, that is a chance this person will never get. Although there is 100% chance that he will never rob anyone or kill anyone in the future. See, it’s best to err on the side of innocent people who live and let live rather than a criminal who may or may not be redeemed. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/149 "2009-05-31T19:07:34Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > If the end result is that robbers are more likely to kill thier victims first, is it still heroic? Because the lesson I see here for would-be thieves is to shot first as the store owner may be armed. Which still raises the bar on the barrier to entry of armed robbery as a profession thus decreasing the amount of armed robbery, and still likely reducing the amount of murder overall as only those who go with the intent to kill will commit robbery, so you’ll get fewer heat of the moment murders by people who never wanted to kill anyone, they just wanted to rob someone. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/150 "2009-05-31T19:07:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Yeah, killing innocent people is fun. Innocent people? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/151 "2009-05-31T19:07:58Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > [Special Pleading](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading) Hah, you can bring up whatever buzzwords you want. As I said you’re talking to a brick wall. Robbers are scum; they’re parasites; they’re worthless pieces of shit. If it were up to me, they would all be used as target practice. For archery, not rifles. Someone who robs stores is better off dead, and some people are just scumbags who will never contribute anything to society. I know it sounds barbaric and everything but I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/152 "2009-05-31T19:08:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > People like you are savages. Whatever your views about his opinions, you will refrain from hurling personal insults in Great Debates. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/153 "2009-05-31T19:12:07Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Armed robbers don’t get wiser with age. They just get better at robbing people. Ask a cop, judge, or anyone in the field of criminal law. Bullshit. There are plenty of former armed robbers that are productive members of society. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/154 "2009-05-31T19:17:18Z")
**TWEEEEEET!!!** I have no idea whether the claims that anyone who has ever committed a larcenous act deserves to be violently removed from the population are the genuine beliefs of some of you or are simply being posted to get a rise out of your opponents. However, they are very far out of line with the views of nearly every civilization of which we have decent records and they are clearly intended to be inflammatory, even IF you believe them. Find ways to express your odd beliefs that are not overtly intended to get a rise out of others or I will be compelled to view them as trolling. This is not an injunction prohibiting anyone from making a case for the death penalty for any particular action, but against the hyperbolic nonsense that is only intended to reduce this discussion to name calling. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/155 "2009-05-31T19:19:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > All of the information we have indicates that he was unconscious. > > The fact that he “might wake up and might have a gun” is supposition without any evidence… As is all of the evidence that shows he was truly unconscious. The coroner ruled that the head shot was not fatal, and he was shot with a small caliber weapon. There are several stories of people being shot in the head with .380 cal handguns and _NOT_ succumbing to the wound. [Head shot, through and through with a .380](http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?Woman_gets_shot_in_head,_makes_cup_of_tea&in_article_id=627028&in_page_id=2) [Intruder survives two hits by .380](http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/berkeley_heights_resident_shoo.html) My supposition without any evidence is that the shooter realized that he had not eliminated the threat and saw something, a twitch, regained consciousness, who knows, that caused him to feel that he needed to fire again. Murder? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/156 "2009-05-31T19:20:43Z")
**treis** > [@](#): > > Bullshit. There are plenty of former armed robbers that are productive members of society. But they didn’t deserve that second chance. That’s taking a chance with the safety of the people. Just don’t take a chance and keep them in jail. You can’t know how things might turn out. When keeping them incarcerated, you do. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/157 "2009-05-31T19:22:58Z")
Not trolling here. I do believe that someone who threatens an innocent person with death should themselves die. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/158 "2009-05-31T19:23:35Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Hah, you can bring up whatever buzzwords you want. As I said you’re talking to a brick wall. Robbers are scum; they’re parasites; they’re worthless pieces of shit. If it were up to me, they would all be used as target practice. For archery, not rifles. Someone who robs stores is better off dead, and some people are just scumbags who will never contribute anything to society. I know it sounds barbaric and everything but I don’t care. While i wouldn’t go this far i just don’t see all human life as valuable. If someone is in the process of commiting an armed robbery the world would be better served if everyones policy was “shoot until they stop twitching”. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/159 "2009-05-31T19:23:51Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > My supposition without any evidence is that the shooter realized that he had not eliminated the threat and saw something, a twitch, regained consciousness, who knows, that caused him to feel that he needed to fire again. Assume your supposition is correct, that some twitch, noise or movement indicated that Parsons was no longer unconscious. He was still, in fact, unarmed. He was laying there on the floor, both hands visible, the gun out of reach. In what sense, then, was he a threat that deserved five more bullets? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228/160 "2009-05-31T19:24:13Z")
And can a mod determine what “odd beliefs” are? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/folk-hero-or-murderer/498228.md?page=9)