# Follow the Money: Westboro Baptist Church Income? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349 "2011-03-03T15:01:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/21 "2011-03-03T18:51:01Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > It would shock me if they receive any significant amount of donations at all. Really? A local organization I volunteer for had a 60-second spotlight the news one night, and people came out of the woodwork with cash. Granted, it’s a good organization with a good cause - but a national spotlighted Supreme Court case will find supporters for even the most loathsome of causes. Look again at the other end of the spectrum - the night Joe Miller shouted “Liar!” during the State of the Union address, his opponent gained tens of thousands of dollars in donations. Miller himself saw a big spike. Hopefully the silver lining to this is that organizations that run counter to WBC will receive donations as well. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/22 "2011-03-03T19:02:41Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Really? A local organization I volunteer for had a 60-second spotlight the news one night, and people came out of the woodwork with cash. Granted, it’s a good organization with a good cause - but a national spotlighted Supreme Court case will find supporters for even the most loathsome of causes. Look again at the other end of the spectrum - the night Joe Miller shouted “Liar!” during the State of the Union address, his opponent gained tens of thousands of dollars in donations. Miller himself saw a big spike. Hopefully the silver lining to this is that organizations that run counter to WBC will receive donations as well. Huh? That’s because both Miller and his opponent represented views held by millions of Americans; Obama is a liar/Miller is an asshat. I’m sure there are some crazies out there who agree with WBC, but more likely plenty of people believe that God hates gays, and plenty believe that God hates America, but very few believe both. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/23 "2011-03-03T19:07:44Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > Does anyone have a cite to confirm or refute this? > > After reading this post I searched on Google, and found lots of places where people are saying things like “I understand that Hobby Lobby contributes to WBC”, but can’t find any authoritative sources. About a year ago I looked into this, and found some kind of statement from Hobby Lobby saying that they did not. But I can’t seem to locate it now… I’ll keep digging. ---
**Author:** ![Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romeo_and_Whatsherface)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/24 "2011-03-03T19:28:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Three of the Phelp’s children work as staff lawyers for the State of Kansas, one with the Juvenile Justice Department and two for the Department of Corrections. They seem to have been there a long time so they are probably pretty well paid. > Phelps has said he made a lot of money when he was a civil rights lawyer, so he may still have some of that. Specific info, and very much appreciated. Thanks! Phelps must have made millions and millions. As far as I know, the WBC has been on the national scene since the Matthew Shepard case 13 years ago. (I recall a photo in either Newsweek or Life magazine of one of them–IIRC, it was Fred Phelps–holding a sign that said, “Freedom of speech is the right to hate.” I put it on my classroom wall as a way of provoking discussion in my social studies classes.) Of course, the Phelps family has grown since then, so expenses wouldn’t have been as great in the early years, but you’d think they’d have to spend a fortune on security. Or do they? Is it just luck that they haven’t been shot at by some irate mourner? Man, how would you like to work with these people in the State of Kansas? _shudder_ ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/25 "2011-03-03T19:31:16Z")
> [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](#): > > Man, how would you like to work with these people in the State of Kansas? _shudder_ I bet their coworkers put their staplers in jello ALL THE TIME. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/26 "2011-03-03T19:33:06Z")
Regarding the alleged WBC-Hobby Lobby link, [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12564776&postcount=13) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12564776&postcount=14) are the (second-hand) refutations I posted once before, from people who claimed to have contacted HL headquarters and received a strong denial. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/27 "2011-03-03T20:01:10Z")
> [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](#): > > you’d think they’d have to spend a fortune on security. Or do they? Is it just luck that they haven’t been shot at by some irate mourner? Because, while I didn’t understand that sending money to a hate group is OK (if not morally reprehensible), even i understand that murder is wrong. I don’t care if they are ginormous douchebags, murder is wrong, and makes you about as bad as they are. Plus, it isn’t the mature way to deal with the WBC. I’ve seen some very creative counter-protests (my favourite was one where LGBT students were making out in front of the WBC protesters. I was hoping one would die of shock!) - true they don’t listen, but I don’t think martyrdom would make them go away either. strange, a few words were automatically flagged by FF spell check, but “ginormous” wasn’t one of them?? And, FYI, **Munch** , I’m Canadian, not British. I think it was the extra "u"s that threw you off (Canadians use British spelling for most (but not all) words.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/28 "2011-03-03T20:06:57Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Also, losing plaintiffs are routinely required to pay the court costs for the other party. No, actually it’s very rare. The general rule in American law is that each party pays its own costs and fees. It’s only in very particular circumstances that a court will order a party to pay the other party’s legal costs. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/29 "2011-03-03T20:12:41Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > Plus, it isn’t the mature way to deal with the WBC. I’ve seen some very creative counter-protests (my favourite was one where LGBT students were making out in front of the WBC protesters. I was hoping one would die of shock!) - true they don’t listen, but I don’t think martyrdom would make them go away either. I think most counter-protests only encourage them. They have antisemitic protests occasionally, and while some zealots want to confront them cooler heads usually prevail. I believe they protested in front of a synagogue in Brooklyn recently, and the Jewish counter-protesters just stood in line with their backs to the WBCers, ignoring them. Even that seems too much for me; actually ignoring them might be more effective than symbolically ignoring them. It would also be helpful if the media gave them less attention, but that’s a rather complicated issue. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/30 "2011-03-03T20:17:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Specific info, and very much appreciated. Thanks! Phelps must have made millions and millions. As far as I know, the WBC has been on the national scene since the Matthew Shepard case 13 years ago. And, of course, in the early days, they weren’t quite as universal with their hate, and so would still be getting donations from the faction who believes that God hates faggots but loves the USA. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/31 "2011-03-03T20:41:51Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Three of the Phelp’s children work as staff lawyers for the State of Kansas, one with the Juvenile Justice Department and two for the Department of Corrections. They seem to have been there a long time so they are probably pretty well paid. According to the [State of Kansas Salary Database](http://www.kansas.com/salaries/kansas/), there are 4 Kansas state employees whose names are consistent with those of particular Phelps children. ```auto Margie Phelps Corrections Executive III $65,972.00 Elizabeth Phelps Social/Rehab Svcs Executive III $65,522.00 Fred Phelps Jr Corrections Attorney A $55,239.00 Abigail Phelps Juvenile Correct. Special I $42,536.00 ``` In a city where median household income is about $39,000, and where median family income is about $49,000, those are perfectly decent salaries, but they’re certainly not high enough to allow for massive surpluses. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/32 "2011-03-03T21:40:37Z")
Well, our US government funds them, it seems. At least the right-wingers at the FBI do. In their latest protest outside the high school in Hyattsville Maryland, they were on their way to the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA, where they were to be featured speakers about First Amendment rights to a group of law enforcement officers. I don’t know how much the FBI paid them to be speakers, but I doubt they did so for free. At the very least, they probably got their travel expenses from Kansas paid. Which allowed them to hold various protests along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/33 "2011-03-04T03:10:52Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Well, our US government funds them, it seems. > At least the right-wingers at the FBI do. > > In their latest protest outside the high school in Hyattsville Maryland, they were on their way to the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA, where they were to be featured speakers about First Amendment rights to a group of law enforcement officers. > > I don’t know how much the FBI paid them to be speakers, but I doubt they did so for free. At the very least, they probably got their travel expenses from Kansas paid. Which allowed them to hold various protests along the way. :rolleyes: Cite that the FBI gave them a cent, travel expenses or otherwise? Cite that “right-wingers” at the FBI had anything to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romeo_and_Whatsherface)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/34 "2011-03-04T16:02:16Z")
[quote=“dhkendall, post:27, topic:573349”] Because, while I didn’t understand that sending money to a hate group is OK (if not morally reprehensible), even i understand that murder is wrong. I don’t care if they are ginormous douchebags, murder is wrong, and makes you about as bad as they are. Plus, it isn’t the mature way to deal with the WBC. I’ve seen some very creative counter-protests (my favourite was one where LGBT students were making out in front of the WBC protesters. I was hoping one would die of shock!) - true they don’t listen, but I don’t think martyrdom would make them go away either. Maybe you misunderstood my question. I was not suggesting someone _should_ shoot them, or that attempted murder would in any way be morally acceptable. The fact is, though, that not everyone has such scruples, and people under the severe stress of losing a loved one and then facing malevolent haters at the loved one’s funeral may be especially likely to snap. I also don’t think violence would make the WBC go away. Again, not everyone uses that reasoning. The WBC seems to enrage a broad cross-section of the American populace, making them, it seems to me, at increased risk for someone trying to off them. Hence, my question about what their security costs might be. I’d still like to know, actually. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/35 "2011-03-04T16:26:26Z")
Yes, they are an embarrassment to real Christians. God hates sin, but neither homosexuals or other sinners. Fortunately most, thinking themselves as Christians, remember Christ never lifted his hand up against another man. Real Christians will pray for them, but will not physically attack them. However, those living a Christian life are a minority. I find it ironic that Westboro targets an institution that over all is negative toward homosexuality. I think there are many in our society capable of violence toward Westboro. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/36 "2011-03-04T16:31:42Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > One rumor that I have never been able to confirm is that craft retailer Hobby Lobby is a big donor to WBC. I know that they are run by a fairly conservative Christian group but I’ve never actually been able to find proof that they donate to the Phelpses. I very much doubt that this retailer donates to Phelps’ organization. FYI, here’s the [ministry page](http://www.hobbylobby.com/our_company/ministry.cfm) from that retailer’s website, listing the organizations which it supports. (All are Christian, of course, but none are that organization.) It sounds like various other urban legends about retailers or manufacturers giving money to distasteful groups. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/37 "2011-03-04T17:15:09Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > No, actually it’s very rare. The general rule in American law is that each party pays its own costs and fees. It’s only in very particular circumstances that a court will order a party to pay the other party’s legal costs. CHECK YOU FEDERAL RULE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE 54 In the American system, each party is normally responsible for paying its own _attorneys’ fees_, regardless of whether they prevail in the suit. However, in federal court, under Fed. R. Civ. P. 54(d)(1), “nless a federal statute, these rules, or a court order provides otherwise, _costs_ — other than attorney’s fees — should be allowed to the prevailing party” (emphasis added). Costs are defined at 28 U.S.C. § 1920, and include “fees of the clerk and marshal; fees for printed or electronically recorded transcripts necessarily obtained for use in the case; fees and disbursements for printing and witnesses; fees for exemplification and the costs of making copies of any materials where the copies are necessarily obtained for use in the case; docket fees under section 1923 of this title; compensation of court appointed experts, compensation of interpreters, and salaries, fees, expenses, and costs of special interpretation services under section 1828 of this title.” These costs need to be substantiated in the bill of costs and, since these should represent actual outlays already made by the Phelpses/WBC, it’s hard to see how the award of costs can enrich them. (Yes, they are better off than if they had to eat these costs, but the OP wants to know how the Phelpses/WBC make their ham and eggs, not merely keep their heads above water.) ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/38 "2011-03-05T03:56:20Z")
What I’m wondering is why these people remain employed in a governmental capacity. If Joe Q. Schmoe was a lawyer for the department of corrections, but it came to be known that he was a vocal KKK member, wouldn’t he lose his job? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/39 "2011-03-05T04:03:25Z")
Why would he be fired? Do you think it should be a requirement of public service that one should hold certain beliefs or not hold other ones? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349/40 "2011-03-05T04:35:30Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > What I’m wondering is why these people remain employed in a governmental capacity. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act prohibits the state of Kansas from firing them because of their religious affiliation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/follow-the-money-westboro-baptist-church-income/573349.md?page=3)