# Food Fadists - STFU **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037 "2012-06-23T05:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/481 "2012-07-23T18:22:10Z")
And here’s a study linking diabetes and low-bacteria environments. [http://forecast.diabetes.org/magazine/your-ada/hygiene-hypothesis](http://forecast.diabetes.org/magazine/your-ada/hygiene-hypothesis) ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/482 "2012-07-23T18:26:58Z")
So basically, what I’m pointing out with all these links is that a diet that includes plenty of bacteria, no grains, and little-to-no dairy appears to be a better diet for humans. The question is, does that square with what we know about humans diets prior to civilization? Absolutely. Grain and dairy consumption are very recent, as are diets very high in heavily-cooked foods. Raw foods contain bacteria, which, at least in the studies I’ve cited, appear to be preventative in autoimmune disorders, including diabetes and bowel diseases. Chew on those links for a few days. Fair warning–if I think you haven’t read them carefully, you are getting no more cites from me. Any questions or disagreements better show a careful reading of the material, or those are the last cites you get from me. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/483 "2012-07-23T18:50:33Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Well, I suppose I could start with the many problems that grain consumption, especially gluten-containing grain consumption, causes. > > [www.gluten-free.org/hoggan/](http://www.gluten-free.org/hoggan/) > > That link contains quite a few pages that cite peer-reviewed studies. Click on each link to see. > > The problem isn’t the science. It’s solid. The problem is getting people to change their habits, and _stay_ changed. They won’t do it. How does this relate to a **Western diet**? People didn’t just start eating wheat and grains in the past few hundred years; they have been eating grains [for as long as 20,000 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#Neolithic_era). No, I think it is something else with Western diets that makes it disease-causing, whether it is processed bleached grains (different from whole grains when eaten), artificial “food like” substances, (artificial) chemicals (such as partially hydrogenated oil, or the addition of nitrites to meat and other preservatives), etc, or all of them in combination. The same is also true of dairy; [check this out](http://www.jacn.org/content/27/6/723S.long): > [@](#): > > Conclusions: Set against the proportion of total deaths attributable to the life-threatening diseases in the UK, vascular disease, diabetes and cancer, the results of meta-analyses provide evidence of an overall survival advantage from the consumption of milk and dairy foods. So I’ll continue to drink my several cups of milk a day\* (and according to [this](http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Calcium-HealthProfessional/#h4), a large percentage of the U.S\> population doesn’t get enough calcium unless they take supplements; that said, [supplements](http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Calcium-HealthProfessional/#h4) have been linked to heart attack risk but not natural food sources). \*When I was a kid and teenager, I instead drank several cans of soda a day, something I now regard as pure junk food (considering that was around 500 empty calories a day, I am surprised that I didn’t get fat, although the milk I now drink pretty much replaces the soda, which was mainly taken at meals). ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/484 "2012-07-23T19:11:56Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > So basically, what I’m pointing out with all these links is that a diet that includes plenty of bacteria, no grains, and little-to-no dairy appears to be a better diet for humans. Which of course is why the modern Swiss live longer than pre-civilized humans. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/485 "2012-07-23T19:24:08Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Which of course is why the modern Swiss live longer than pre-civilized humans. Dying from hunger or traumatic accident is not equivalent to dying of early-onset stroke or heart disease. If you think humans on their species-appropriate diet are going to ever get diabetes, early strokes/heart disease, early arthritis, early dementia, or any of a number of other degenerative disorders, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you. I’ll even throw it some oceanfront property for free. Don’t delay! Act now! ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/486 "2012-07-23T19:29:52Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > How does this relate to a **Western diet**? People didn’t just start eating wheat and grains in the past few hundred years; they have been eating grains [for as long as 20,000 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#Neolithic_era). No, I think it is something else with Western diets that makes it disease-causing, whether it is processed bleached grains (different from whole grains when eaten), artificial “food like” substances, (artificial) chemicals (such as partially hydrogenated oil, or the addition of nitrites to meat and other preservatives), etc, or all of them in combination. The same is also true of dairy; [check this out](http://www.jacn.org/content/27/6/723S.long): > > So I’ll continue to drink my several cups of milk a day\* (and according to [this](http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Calcium-HealthProfessional/#h4), a large percentage of the U.S\> population doesn’t get enough calcium unless they take supplements; that said, [supplements](http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Calcium-HealthProfessional/#h4) have been linked to heart attack risk but not natural food sources). > > \*When I was a kid and teenager, I instead drank several cans of soda a day, something I now regard as pure junk food (considering that was around 500 empty calories a day, I am surprised that I didn’t get fat, although the milk I now drink pretty much replaces the soda, which was mainly taken at meals). Only a few human groups were eating grains that long ago. Native Americans only started about 1,000 years ago, many Africans never started, and Pacific Islanders and Australian Aborigines never started either. Grains are also a very recent introduction to Northern European populations as well. As far as milk goes, I can provide many, many links showing that calcium consumption correlates highly with heart disease. I have no problem with you using dairy, but i recommend you supplement with magnesium, to balance out the excessive calcium. Dairy has about 10 times as much calcium as it does magnesium, and we really need more like a 1:2 ratio of calcium to magnesium. I also can provide a link showing that the Maasai, very, VERY heavy dairy consumers, are prone to atherosclerosis. In addition, making sure your dairy is grass-fed is also important. Consuming dairy raw is also fairly important. Really, though, dairy deserves its own thread. I don’t want to muck up this discussion with pages and pages of back-and-forth on dairy, please. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/487 "2012-07-23T19:32:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > . My last visit to an allergist was over 35 years ago, I’d sort of like another consultation to determine what, if anything, has changed in the meanwhile. You’ve got a medical issue and haven’t seen the doctor about it in 35 years? How long are you gonna wait? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/488 "2012-07-23T19:52:04Z")
I _have_ seen doctors on a regular basis - it’s the _allergy specialist_ I haven’t seen. For several years I have been asking my regular doctor about seeing an actual allergist, and he’s not opposed, but the insurance company refuses to authorize it which means I would have to pay entirely out of pocket. This puts me in a position of either paying my rent in a given month or having that doctor visit. What can I say? It sucks to be poor and you get second rate medical care (which is still better than being entirely uninsured). The rationale for that refusal? I haven’t been to a hospital for my allergies for over 20 years so they must not be serious. Basically, I’ve done too good a job at avoiding reactions to get proper follow-up care. I’ll be trying again this August when I start my annual round of physical check-up and routine testing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/489 "2012-07-23T19:54:14Z")
Oh, and **AL27052** I will be digesting your links. Thank you for providing them. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/490 "2012-07-23T22:37:16Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > How does this relate to a **Western diet**? People didn’t just start eating wheat and grains in the past few hundred years; they have been eating grains [for as long as 20,000 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#Neolithic_era). Grains are inedible unless processed. Doesn’t matter how long ago we figured out how to process them. > [@](#): > > So I’ll continue to drink my several cups of milk a day\* (and according to [this](http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Calcium-HealthProfessional/#h4), a large percentage of the U.S\> population doesn’t get enough calcium unless they take supplements; that said, [supplements](http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Calcium-HealthProfessional/#h4) have been linked to heart attack risk but not natural food sources). You don’t think it’s significant that we’re pretty much the only mammal that insists on drinking milk past infancy? Milk of another species, in fact? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/491 "2012-07-23T23:37:28Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > You don’t think it’s significant that we’re pretty much the only mammal that insists on drinking milk past infancy? Milk of another species, in fact? Maybe it’s that we are the only animal to wear clothes (or bowl). ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/492 "2012-07-24T00:04:22Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Maybe it’s that we are the only animal to wear clothes (or bowl). Well, outside of any animals we choose to clothe, those poor purse-dogs… ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/493 "2012-07-24T02:39:39Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Grains are inedible unless processed. Doesn’t matter how long ago we figured out how to process them. > > You don’t think it’s significant that we’re pretty much the only mammal that insists on drinking milk past infancy? Milk of another species, in fact? This is why I think we need a whole other thread for dairy. I know people personally who swear by grassfed raw dairy. There are a number of African groups that treasure the dairy from cows eating fast-growing spring grass, because it’s much, much higher in nutrients. Grassfed dairy, especially in the spring, contains a lot of vitamin A, in easily-used form, as well as minerals, etc., depending on the soil content. OTOH, I also know people who simply cannot digest it, in any form, grassfed or not, fermented or not, and who get sick in multiple ways when they consume it. It has to be an individual choice. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/494 "2012-07-24T19:24:50Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Grains are inedible unless processed. Doesn’t matter how long ago we figured out how to process them. > ? Sorry but bullfuckingshit. Anybody can eat grains raw, and they digest just fine. The only real thing that happens when cooked is that a small portion more becomes nutritionally available. I used to eat raw oats and wheat by the handsful when growing up - I would grab it in the field on my way out to the woods to hang out all day mainly so I wouldn’t have to hike all the way back for lunch. I will say that I have never seen them pass through undigested. How the heck do you think we started eating grains, anyway? Bread and porridge didn’t spring from Zeus’ forehead - people ate their food raw thousands and thousands of years before the use of fire. [and Yes I do actually know the ‘evolution of grains’ thanks, if you want I can provide the URLs of some of my favorites - I have a great one for [wheat](http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1996/v3-156.html).] ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/495 "2012-07-24T23:39:43Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > OTOH, I also know people who simply cannot digest it, in any form, grassfed or not, fermented or not, and who get sick in multiple ways when they consume it. That’s not a mystery. The ability to continue to digest milk past weaning is genetic. Some human groups have the gene at a high frequency and some don’t. For those who retain the ability there’s nothing wrong with eating dairy. For those that don’t they’re better off avoiding it. It’s not a matter of “personal choice” it’s a matter of whether or not an individual inherited a particular gene. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/496 "2012-07-25T00:35:02Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Sorry but bullfuckingshit. Anybody can eat grains raw, and they digest just fine. The only real thing that happens when cooked is that a small portion more becomes nutritionally available. I used to eat raw oats and wheat by the handsful when growing up - I would grab it in the field on my way out to the woods to hang out all day mainly so I wouldn’t have to hike all the way back for lunch. I will say that I have never seen them pass through undigested. > > How the heck do you think we started eating grains, anyway? Bread and porridge didn’t spring from Zeus’ forehead - people ate their food raw thousands and thousands of years before the use of fire. [and Yes I do actually know the ‘evolution of grains’ thanks, if you want I can provide the URLs of some of my favorites - I have a great one for [wheat](http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1996/v3-156.html).] A significant portion of the population has severe issues with gluten, including celiac disease and various other problems. I myself get bad bleeding from my gums when I try to eat wheat raw, after a few days. You are one person. Yes, there are some people who seem to have no problem with grains. Billions DO have problems with grains, especially gluten. We are in no way, as a species, fully adapted to grains, raw or cooked. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/497 "2012-07-25T00:38:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That’s not a mystery. The ability to continue to digest milk past weaning is genetic. Some human groups have the gene at a high frequency and some don’t. For those who retain the ability there’s nothing wrong with eating dairy. For those that don’t they’re better off avoiding it. It’s not a matter of “personal choice” it’s a matter of whether or not an individual inherited a particular gene. I’ve seen people all up and down the scale. It really is a sliding scale, in my experience. A few people can drink it fresh, and never have a problem. A few can’t even eat butter without having reactions. Most people are in between. It’s not just the ability to digest lactose that’s the issue. It’s quite possible to be allergic and/or have sensitivity to proteins in the milk. I know one guy, a fellow moderator on a nutrition board that I mod, whose teeth get very loose in their sockets when he consumes dairy regularly. He also has a large variety of other problems with it. I’ve never seen a worse overall reaction to it. But nevermind all that. ROFL This is why I said dairy needs its own thread. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/498 "2012-07-25T00:57:57Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I’ve seen people all up and down the scale. It really is a sliding scale, in my experience. A few people can drink it fresh, and never have a problem. A few can’t even eat butter without having reactions. Most people are in between. People who drink raw milk are idiots, unless they own the cow and can be absolutely sure it’s healthy and the milk is properly handled. Raw milk can be Club Med for a variety of pathogens, which is why homogenization caught on. Someone who can’t tolerate butter is more likely to have either an allergy or some issue with fats/oils that a lactose deficiency. Someone with the gene to produce lactose past weaning who doesn’t eat dairy will have their production of the enzyme drop, but a _gradual_ reintroduction of dairy to their diet will usually prompt their bodies to begin production again. > [@](#): > > It’s not just the ability to digest lactose that’s the issue. It’s quite possible to be allergic and/or have sensitivity to proteins in the milk. Yes, well, if you had bothered to read the thread from the beginning we’ve covered the food allergy angle pretty thoroughly. > [@](#): > > I know one guy, a fellow moderator on a nutrition board that I mod, whose teeth get very loose in their sockets when he consumes dairy regularly. I suspect the problem is more with dental hygiene and lack of flossing than dairy products. Seriously, what mechanism would lead to tooth-loosening when diary is consumed but not when other food is consumed? And what’s this “nutrition board”? Is that something run by people who have actually studied diet in a scientific/academic setting or is self-taught new age gurus, homeopaths, and other charlatans? > [@](#): > > He also has a large variety of other problems with it. I’ve never seen a worse overall reaction to it. I’d say my niece’s reaction - hives, cessation of breathing, plunging blood pressure, and other signs of anaphylactic shock is probably more spectacular, at least in the short term, but then she IS allergic to cow’s milk. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/499 "2012-07-25T01:00:29Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > A significant portion of the population has severe issues with gluten, including celiac disease and various other problems. If someone has a problem with a certain food they shouldn’t eat it, but that doesn’t automatically mean the rest of us have a problem, or will ever have a problem, or that there is any reason whatsoever for the rest of the world to avoid the stuff. > [@](#): > > I myself get bad bleeding from my gums when I try to eat wheat raw, after a few days. Then don’t eat raw wheat. > [@](#): > > You are one person. Yes, there are some people who seem to have no problem with grains. Billions DO have problems with grains, especially gluten. We are in no way, as a species, fully adapted to grains, raw or cooked. I suspect you’d consider us not fully adapted to _anything_ as a species. Billions DON’T have a problem with grains. You’re looking at the problem(s) of a minority and extrapolating it to everyone else which is bullshit. The only people who benefit from the dissemination of such bullshit are those who sell bullshit diets and “supplements”. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037/500 "2012-07-25T01:28:46Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I suspect you’d consider us not fully adapted to _anything_ as a species. Billions DON’T have a problem with grains. You’re looking at the problem(s) of a minority and extrapolating it to everyone else which is bullshit. The only people who benefit from the dissemination of such bullshit are those who sell bullshit diets and “supplements”. I begin to think that those who think all ills can be fixed by "eating right’ have never heard of genetics, or at the very least have forgotten that many (most? all?) allergies have a genetic component. Back before modern medicine was able to keep the weaker ones among us alive and healthy, those with severe allergies wouldn’t have lived to reproductive age, or wouldn’t have been considered desirable breeding stock by the opposite sex. But nowdays we not only have these folks living to reproductive age and beyond, we also have people who don’t think twice about having children when they know they carry for a life threatening medical problem. So, while “eating right” will help with many things, it isn’t going to fix allergies and probably not food intolerance either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-fadists-stfu/626037.md?page=26)